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  #17  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:15 AM
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thats a really good chart for someone who needs to consider all the factors before just breeding their pets!
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2009, 08:03 AM
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I don't like this chart. Lets say my dog is purebreed with papers but the person I got her from didn't believe in showing or didn't like to. Does that mean I shouldn't breed my dog? It doesn't mean she is any lesser dog of her breed if her parents are not champions.
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  #19  
Old 12-23-2009, 05:05 PM
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I agree with the above, if you want to show that is fine but i don't think showing is the only thing important in breeding. You can breed show quality dogs that fit the standard and not show. Besides the system is flawed, because judges are just people too even though they have alot of experiance in the breed doesn't mean they don't use their own personal preferences in judging . Proof is that if they didn't than the same dog would win against the dogs that were previously shown with it but you can have two judges award different places out of the same group of dogs. I DO however think that you should try to stick to the standard when breeding so that Chis stay looking like Chis and not Min Pins or other breeds not to say your dog can't have any flaws but as few as possible and try not to have the same flaw in the mate. I would take health and good temperment over a physical flaw or two any day.
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  #20  
Old 12-24-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesar's Mommy View Post
I don't like this chart. Lets say my dog is purebreed with papers but the person I got her from didn't believe in showing or didn't like to. Does that mean I shouldn't breed my dog? It doesn't mean she is any lesser dog of her breed if her parents are not champions.
But why would you (generalising) want to? The market in the UK and the United States is saturated with poor quality Chihuahua puppies from people who don't breed to standard and from their pet quality puppies

There are lot's of people now breeding or planning to breed from their pet quality Chihuahuas, why?

Lot's of Chihuahuas have a plethora of Champions in their pedigree and yet the Chihuahua itself is not of breed standard. I've seen Champion sired Chihuahuas that though lovely pets are not really up to being used as stud dogs The free ad sites are full of dogs like this...

x
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  #21  
Old 01-08-2010, 07:53 PM
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I got both my Chis fixed so I didnt want to breed them. But if I chose to breed I would make sure the pups would have good homes and being took care of which is what matters most. I love my pups and they make me happy and that is what I wanted. But just because they are not champions or their parents are not does not mean they are any less quality than a champion sired pup. My sister shows Yorkies and one of her boys had a longer nose than what he should have and people were rude to her, no matter if you follow guidelines does not mean that you are going to get the breed standard. Both of his parents came from generations of champions.
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2010, 08:50 AM
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I'm not posting my opinion one way or another on breeding but I just want to point out how interesting it is that the Chihuahua started out bigger & with many of the characteristics we now view as major "flaws" (floppy ears, long legs, deer head, etc). Who are the Chi expert(s) or breeder(s) who decided to change the Chi so much & make them so different from what they originally were?

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against breeding & showing (I'd love to do both at some point in my life) & I love the newer look of the Chi, but somebodys opinion on what the breed "should be" has changed it dramatically from what it started out to be. Now when we get a pup that would have passed for a more standard look of a Chi 100 years ago than todays "show quality" dog, it is immediately questioned whether or not it is in fact purebred Chihuahua. It is crazy IMO (for what its worth LOL)!!

I suppose the only way to totally "phase out" the old look is to stop breeding outside of TODAYS show quality. But how is breeding outside of todays show quality any different than those "professionals" who decided to change the look of the breed to begin with?

It really can be quite a controvertial subject & I'm in no way wanting to start a debate about what the breed standard should or should not be as that is way above me. I just find the history of the Chi interesting & it just makes it so clear as to why there are so many different looks on these beautiful dogs. It also makes the subject of breeding very tricky because you could have somebody who wants to breed for show quality or you could also have somebody who wants to breed for the way the Chi was originally was. Both are, to me, very respectful yet different reasons.

I don't know what the point of my post really was. Just some thoughts I have been pondering for some time I guess & I figured I'd finally "put them down on paper".
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2010, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChis View Post
I'm not posting my opinion one way or another on breeding but I just want to point out how interesting it is that the Chihuahua started out bigger & with many of the characteristics we now view as major "flaws" (floppy ears, long legs, deer head, etc). Who are the Chi expert(s) or breeder(s) who decided to change the Chi so much & make them so different from what they originally were?

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against breeding & showing (I'd love to do both at some point in my life) & I love the newer look of the Chi, but somebodys opinion on what the breed "should be" has changed it dramatically from what it started out to be. Now when we get a pup that would have passed for a more standard look of a Chi 100 years ago than todays "show quality" dog, it is immediately questioned whether or not it is in fact purebred Chihuahua. It is crazy IMO (for what its worth LOL)!!

I suppose the only way to totally "phase out" the old look is to stop breeding outside of TODAYS show quality. But how is breeding outside of todays show quality any different than those "professionals" who decided to change the look of the breed to begin with?

It really can be quite a controvertial subject & I'm in no way wanting to start a debate about what the breed standard should or should not be as that is way above me. I just find the history of the Chi interesting & it just makes it so clear as to why there are so many different looks on these beautiful dogs. It also makes the subject of breeding very tricky because you could have somebody who wants to breed for show quality or you could also have somebody who wants to breed for the way the Chi was originally was. Both are, to me, very respectful yet different reasons.

I don't know what the point of my post really was. Just some thoughts I have been pondering for some time I guess & I figured I'd finally "put them down on paper".
I agree that I've had some of these same thoughts myself.

Something I find interesting is that actually, the dogs I see winning in the ring, all tend to deviate in certain ways from what the standard actually looks for in the same manner.

You could have a dog that fit the standard perfectly, but it'd be beat by dogs in the ring because they are typier, but not necessarily more "standard".

I think showing is very political and every breeder that shows who I've talked to has confirmed that. Look at the chi in the standard picture, versus what's winning. They almost look like a different breed. Just my IMO though, not trying to ruffle any feathers.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2010, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChis View Post
I'm not posting my opinion one way or another on breeding but I just want to point out how interesting it is that the Chihuahua started out bigger & with many of the characteristics we now view as major "flaws" (floppy ears, long legs, deer head, etc). Who are the Chi expert(s) or breeder(s) who decided to change the Chi so much & make them so different from what they originally were?
I'm not sure where you get this information. Can you forward it to me? I'm really interested in seeing documentation that shows early Chis looked like this. Nothing I've seen in any literature to date indicates that the beginning of our breed had these characteristics. Actually, it's all contrary to these statements so if there's evidence differently, our breed historians at CCA need this information.

I think the most illustrated research paper was done by Nancy Shobeck for CCA and published in the 1992 Handbook. "The History of the Chihuahua as Traced Through PreColumbian Artifacts" has many pictures of the early dipictions of our breed, and they all have short legs, round heads, and erect ears. The muzzles differ in length from short to longer, but the heads are round, not triangular deer heads. Some historians are pointing to the Chihuahua like dogs of Malta and suggest that they arrived via the travelling ships to influence the breed, including adding the long coat gene. Others, authorities on Latin America and the Ancient Aztecs of Mexico, contend that the original Chihuahua was a long coat. Historically, the first three AKC registered Chihuahuas were Long Coats. The Breeder who had the most Champions in the early 1920s had only Long Coats. So there is some conflict as to the origin of the Long Coat in our breed, but again, they were not long legged, long muzzled, nor did they have deer heads and down ears. In pictures of Chihuahuas in 1951, the dogs closely resemble dogs of today, with the exception of a little longer muzzle with more taper. It's long been agreed that the origins of the breed have been lost in the ages but until now, there has never been any argument over the basic look of the Chihuahua. In my 20 years with the breed, I've never heard this claim so I'm extremely anxious to see your documentation. As I've said before, one should continue to strive to learn something new everyday. If the information I have is incorrect, I'm happy to get the correct information.

Until I see the documentation, I'll have to stand on my belief that breeders did not change the breed as a whole. It has been refined to it's current look, but they are still Chihuahuas. The should be slightly off square, with a body that's a little longer than their legs. They should have a round head with a moderate muzzle with a distinct stop. Most depictions of the earliest Chi like dogs have this marked head type. There are a few that have a more deerlike head with a triangular shape and sloping muzzle, but they are not the majority. In everything, the ears are erect. An open molera is documented back to our earliest breed history. This is something that very rarely happens with a "deer head" so if that was the "true" head type, the open moleras wouldn't be specifically indicated in pictures and clay representations of the breed.

I look forward to reading this new information and sharing it with the CCA and other Chi history buffs. It certainly represents a new avenue of research never done before.
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Last edited by LiMarChis; 05-13-2010 at 11:05 PM.
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