Hi!

First post... I'll get to an intro shortly.

My reason for joining is that I have access to some local ground whole prey patties that are being marketed as a complete diet, and I had some questions about them. Flavours range from chicken, beef, and venison, through elk, rabbit, quail, bison, etc.

My first question is, will feeding these ground whole prey patties be balanced enough over time? I imagine quail and rabbit (smaller animals) will have more likelihood of containing more organ meat than beef, bison, elk, etc. which at times may well be organ only. But the quantity my dog eats is so small that I can only really rotate every 2-4 days, as it takes her that long to go through a patty. Thoughts?

My second question, the same company offers a patty that is ground meaty bones, especially for providing more bone matter for puppies. They recommend using these patties 50/50 with their whole prey chicken patties. Is this necessary, or is whole animal balanced enough?

Lastly, is supplementing with additional offal necessary? I will supplement with tripe (on top of whatever may be in the patties already), but I wasn't sure if adding more offal separately would be too much?

Thanks in advance!

Oops, that should read that the large animal patties may well be MEAT (and bone) only, with no organ, some of the time. Sorry, it was late!

Do you have an analysis of exactly what is in the patties? Ingredients and percentage of ingredients would be ideal. You are looking for mostly meat, a little bone, and a little organ. I've found most pre-mades contain a LOT of bone. Bone helps keep stools firm and of course, it's discards in the meat industry, so it's cheap. I wouldn't supplement a puppy with extra bone. My guess is that those patties contain enough, and probably too much bone already.

If you are confident about the company and what it's producing, then it should be fine. But in that way, it's sort of like the kibble industry... you are trusting a company to do what is right for your dog nutritionally.

If you have any doubt, do it yourself.

I know some people in the UK who use a product that is mostly meat and some bone. They add in organs on the side separately. That works for them.

It really comes down to knowing exactly what the company is producing and do they have a good handle on ratios and percentages. Whole prey rabbit, quail, chicken, etc. would be OK. But I don't know how they are labeling whole prey bison or elk ... are they REALLY grinding up a whole elk and then portioning it out in patties? Or just replicating what they THINK is in an elk as far as the ratio of bone to meat and organs.

__________________

"Having heard all of this, you may choose to look the other way.....
but you can never say again that you did not know." William Wilberforce 1759-1833

They're really grinding up whole prey animal, as far as I know (not having seen the processing facility, though, since it is across the country). Their ingredients for the patties really are "Ground Whole <Insert Prey Animal Here>".

If we assume the patties are from a ground batch that is the appropriate mix of meat to bones and organs, BUT we also recognize that with the larger animals, there may not be 100% uniformity from patty to patty (which is reasonable to expect, I think) is the diet balanced enough over time?

For instance, if I feed elk, she may get elk for 2-4 days in a row and that patty may be an individual patty with more/less organ or more/less bone. Next time, next patty, the ratios may be different. But I have to assume that over time (weeks?) the nutrition from ground whole prey would be balanced...?

I agree that trusting the source is important, and I do trust this source. There is absolutely nutritional info available, but I don't really know how to read it to determine whether they're being honest.

Not sure if I am allowed to post links, but if so, this is the company - I linked directly to the page with their protein choices and nutritional info for the patties:

Fresh Frozen Products

There is also another similar, smaller company that adds Venison and Alpaca as protein choices, but it is harder to find so I would likely mostly be using the Carnivora patties.

Not sure if you can take a look at the info and let me know what you think? They seemed legit... The patties apparently even include all the nutritious glands etc.

ETA: I found this on the Company page...

Carnivora utilizes specialized equipment, which is capable of processing both large and small whole animals, including all types of bones and animal tissues...
<SNIP>
Whole chicken and duck patties contain the entire bird except feathers and intestines. Whole rabbit patties do not contain the hide, large intestine (manure) or bladder. Lamb and beef patties contain the whole animal with the exception of hides, bladder and large intestine (manure), hooves, horns (if any). We do not use non-edible bones as these would not be totally consumed in nature due to their density.

Ok, just looked through the link. And yes, I think this is a good product. I would definitely use it in my rotation.

If it were me, I'd buy several of the whole ground prey patties and rotate through them, but I'd also buy the offal and use that several times a week, just to make sure that you are getting organs. It says the whole prey contains organs, but I'd hedge my bets and add them in as well.

You could also add in some meaty bones for dental health a couple times a week. I especially like chicken feet for this, but you could do a chicken wing segment, chicken neck (if your dog isn't a gulper), or pork or beef ribs.

I'd say that looks like a great product! If you end up trying it out, report back and let us know how it goes!!

__________________

"Having heard all of this, you may choose to look the other way.....
but you can never say again that you did not know." William Wilberforce 1759-1833

Thanks! I will definitely report back!

I do feed dried liver and dried lung as training treats too, so there's SOME organ supplementation going on, as well as ZiwiPeak as treats. I use ZiwiPeak for travel, so I like to keep her eating it on a semi-regular basis so there's no issue when we suddenly have to go 100% ZiwiPeak on a road trip. I know that has some organ in it too.

I can grab a roll of the offal, and do maybe 1 lb. (2 patties) per month, divided over the month. This is about an 11% organ portion on top of whatever is in the patties, and on top of her training treats. A little high, but maybe not too high?

I calculated this by dividing the 1 lb. offal patty by 9, since there will then be 9 lbs. of food fed per month (8 lbs. whole prey, 1 lb. offal) and I think this is about as close an estimate as I can get.

That sounds like a very workable plan. The added variety is great. I like that you are adding in ZiwiPeak as well. The only thing I would add would be the bones for dental health.

__________________

"Having heard all of this, you may choose to look the other way.....
but you can never say again that you did not know." William Wilberforce 1759-1833