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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm posting here because I don't have access to the breeders section and I'm not sure how to apply (and I don't have 100 posts yet!!).

First, this will be brief because I'm recovering from surgery an on Vicodin so it's very difficult to type, let alone give all the details of my situation.

I am mentoring with an AKC breeder to potentially breed my chihuahuas. My smooth coat female is in her first estrus which began September 22nd (1st day of bleeding - swollen vuvla 3 days prior). I have two intact males in the house and have been careful to keep them separated (one intact male will be pet only and neutered soon - not soon enough!!!). I separate via female in crate and males in separate area go-go pen. Separate potty times plus female wears diaper at all times and males wear wraps when out for their playtime (again, separate from my girls).

Because I'm post-surgery (ovarian cyst, ovary, tube removed) my in-laws are here helping with the kids and pets. My MIL was extensively prepped on the chis esp. since Stella is in season. That said, I found Stella and my male due to be altered out together this evening. They were lying near each other cleaning themselves. I grabbed my girl and her vuvla was out the edge of her diaper (my male, Lucky, wasn't wearing his wrap) and her vulva had white discharge slightly oozing out. My male was cleaning himself and looked very tired and relieved (unlike his neurotic self of late due to Stella's heat cycle). I'm quite certain they tied. :(

Now for the details. First day of bleeding was 9/22. She was standing/flagging noticeably on 10/4. Based on averages, today would make her Day 18 from first day of bleeding or, assuming day 10 LH, day 12 OV, this would be day 6 post OV. So, it's late in a typical cycle but still within viability of ovum.

Where people are concerned, I don't believe in abortion so when my mentor (also chi breeder suggested "morning after" options) the moral dilemma was raised.

I also don't want to endanger my Stella and I'm' quite distraught as I have hopes of showing/finishing her.

I would love to hear any other similar experiences/outcomes. I plan on bringing her to my vet on Tuesday, due to the holiday weekend but of course I'm going crazy in the mean time and would appreciate words of wisdom. My mentor/breeder has only personally experienced 1 accidental mating in her 5 years of breeding and the result was one stillborn pup. Mom was okay. She has heard of two other accidental first-estrus breedings. In one scenario Mom and pups died, in the other mom required c-section but all survived.

ETA: I should mention that in the scenario where the mom and pups died it was because the owner didn't realize she was pregnant (had WAY too many dogs) and didn't get her prenatal care nor was she present for the whelping which ended in a dystocic stillborn pup. That particular situation was one with a BYB that wasn't caring for her dogs properly. My mentor/breeder was actually trying to work with the county to rehome pups from this woman when this occurred. I didn't want to scare someone that might search this topic and then read this. Still, having puppies too young DOES pose a threat to the mother and puppies but can be managed with proper and attentive medical care.

Thanks for the advice. Please be advised that I am not some backyard breeder throwing puppies together. I take the art and science of breedign seriously and have been training and researching at length before even making a decision to breed (I thought I had plenty more time too!!!). I would prefer, if you're comments are that of "you should've been more careful" that you keep them to yourself. I realize this is an undesired situation and it wouldn't have happened if my current health wasn't compromised. My mother-in-law was also trying her best to help out our family. ACCIDENTS are just that....accidental!!!!!

Thank you so much, fellow Chi-lovers!!
 

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If you are going to do the mismate shot it has to be done within 48-72 hours, and it can sometimes make the dog sterile. Also it is only about 97% effective, and sometimes you can have pups born with birth defects, and it puts them at higher risk for developing pyometra. Just so you know. I know the decision you are facing is tough, but you have to look at the pros/cons of each side. She is young (I'm assuming since it's her 1st cycle) there will be risks if she does get pregnant, however she's also on the tail end of her cycle, I've never had a bitch get pregnant who was bred that late, but every bitch is different in their cycles. I had 1 oopsie litter, and it was because my brother let my 2 poodles out together when she was in heat, she had just had a litter so we were going to rest her that cycle, we chose to let her have the pups. I've always bred around days 11, 13 & 15. But each dog is different in where they are at at their cycle. You can show/finish her even if she does have puppies, my sister's standard poodle puppy's mom was shown and picked up a major just about 9 weeks after her pups were born. I know lots of breeders who breed their dogs between shows. Good luck with whatever you decide.
 

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Well, what choice do you have?

You don't want to do the mismate shot.

You will be having puppies.

What else do you want to know?
 

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Oh and diapers, belly bands & crates are not good 'barriers' when trying not to breed, we had a client who's pit bull tore the crap out of his penis breeding their golden retriever through a crate. And I hear all the time how dogs get bred through diapers/belly bands. Next time maybe have the boys stay with someone else when the girls are in season. I know it was a fluke with your MIL's help but accidents can & will happen, it's nature.
 

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So your having Puppies , get your girl on a high quality puppy food now ! She will need the extra calcium .
the week before she is due to deliver have her exrayed to be sure you don't need to schedule a C-section .
Your bitch is going to need extra supplements during this pregnancy get with your vet and work out a good program for her .

Good Luck !
Hope all goes well with your delivery .
 

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well you can pray and hope it's a miss, as breeders if we see a tie then you have options 1: misshot 2: let them tie again so less of a chance on only one pup (big cause of Csections) 3: hope and pray 4: aboration

That's it there's isn't anything anyone can do now that it has happened besides what I said above.
Good luck hope everything works out for you and your girl.
 

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Views on human abortion or not get the mis mate jab it could save your puppies life!! If she becomes sterile so what!! She's alive she has puppies she could die!!

Dogs mate because they have too it's nature they will get through a crate a nappy and a belly band it's naive to think otherwise!! If he is going to be neutered the sensible thing to do would have been to do it before the bitch went into heat!!

Yes you've had an operation and recovering is never easy it would have made more sense to send one of the dogs way to someone else but anyway it's done now put your morals/religious views?? Aside were in 2010 and save your girls life
 

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I say save up your money & take her to the vet at day 28 post tie (they can palpate & do an u/s to see pups). Have an xray done around day 57-58 so they can count how many pups you should expect & also so they can measure her pelvis size compared to their head size. From there you will know if you should schedule a c-section or not.

I know accidents happen & there is really no way to keep them seperated safely in the same house. Next time I'd suggest either housing the boys in another place or your female. I can tell you that during her second heat Maribelle had an accidental tie with Marley (who was 7mo old) on her day 18. It was my fault 100%. I'd been great about keeping them seperated but one day everyone was snoozing (Mari was in another room double gated in) so I snuck into the bathroom for 5 minutes to shower. Opened the shower door to come out & heard Mari screaming. Ran out to find them in a tie & I nearly died. We had an u/s done at 28 weeks (there really is nothing the vet can do before then unless you were going to get the shot to prevent the pregnancy) & thankfully there were no pups.

THEN when Maya was in heat a couple months later (we were trying to get Marley neutered but his bloodwork was off so he needed meds for a few weeks before they could recheck & neuter) we left the pups...Marley was closed off in another room in a crate. The door to the room was SHUT & couldn't be opened unless the knob was turned. I was sure Maya was out of her heat (she has a super short heat of 2 weeks total but I was still playing it safe) and I kid you not we came home to them all running around together--the door that had been latched was opened. I still have no idea how the heck that happened....but where theres a will theres a way (and we know Marley can open crate doors from inside but the door knob I have NO idea!). Luckily Maya was in fact done with her heat so we were safe. I was sure no tie had occurred as they weren't interested in one another. But still. Again--our fault for having an intact male & female in the same house. I had been sure to keep them seperated because I so did NOT want to breed Maya (she is very thin framed). Marley is finally neutered & Maya will be spayed shortly. I'm SO relieved to not have any unaltered males in the house.

Anyway, we got lucky & didn't have any pups with our 2 "boo boos" (though really it was only one technical boo boo LOL). I hope for your pups sake that it doesn't take. But the best you can do now is keep her on a premium kibble & call the vet in a couple weeks to schedule an appt. to get her checked. Good luck to you!
 

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Best of luck, hopefully there will be no puppies. When Twiggy went into heat, I crated her and put the crate on top of the tv stand. It's 4 feet tall. She got taken out separately to potty and run around the back yard and in the house only if she was in my lap. Having puppies would probably hurt her tremendously due to her size and disabilities. Billy is going in tomorrow to get neutered, Tico in the next 2 weeks to get done then we will have no unaltered dogs except for her and Smoke and Pepper. She is going in tomorrow to the vet to see if she still isn't a candidate for spaying. I truly hope they think she can be, I know the dangers of having an unspayed female. And I need to see if they will neuter Smoke even with his seizures and elevated liver enzymes.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
If you are going to do the mismate shot it has to be done within 48-72 hours, and it can sometimes make the dog sterile. Also it is only about 97% effective, and sometimes you can have pups born with birth defects, and it puts them at higher risk for developing pyometra.
Yes, thanks for bringing up those points. Also, ECP is not recommended if the bitch has entered diestrus and we're just about on the cut off.

I'm not too impressed with the failure/defect rate of dexamethasone or the the low precentage of success with Parlodel or Estrumate.

I have to be concerned with the side effects of these drugs just as much as the side effects of a litter.

I'm hoping she's late enough in her cycle and her ovum are immature enough to prevent conception!!

Well, what choice do you have?

You don't want to do the mismate shot.

You will be having puppies.

What else do you want to know?
I'm not sure what value you felt your comment would add. It does help me feel out this site, though. As I mentioned in my post I was hoping for anecdotal experience as well as other breeder comments pertaining to late breeding. I don't know, in fact, that I will be having puppies and I'm hoping that is not the case. What I "wanted to know" is if others had dealt with similar situations and, if so, what their outcomes were.

So your having Puppies , get your girl on a high quality puppy food now ! She will need the extra calcium .
the week before she is due to deliver have her exrayed to be sure you don't need to schedule a C-section .
Your bitch is going to need extra supplements during this pregnancy get with your vet and work out a good program for her .

Good Luck !
Hope all goes well with your delivery .
Thank you for your encouraing words. I appreciate the kind response. We feed Orijen and contrary to common beliefs, supplementation, especially Calcium is not advised, especially in the first few weeks. (I only mention it since not everyone realizes that too much calcium can pose risks for the pregnancy). It is recommended, though, to increase food intake and I've already added two smaller meals to aid in extra nutrition, just in case. I will definitely have her evaluated by our vet. Hopefully some cytology smears will give us a better indicator of where she is in her cycle. We've already disucssed the use of a specialist for ultrasonographic consultation for future pregnancy confirmation and monitoring so I will plan on that later in the month. I didn't think I'd be needing those services so soon!!

well you can pray and hope it's a miss, as breeders if we see a tie then you have options 1: misshot 2: let them tie again so less of a chance on only one pup (big cause of Csections) 3: hope and pray 4: aboration

Good luck hope everything works out for you and your girl.
Thank you! I thought about additional ties but since she's so late in her cycle she's probably already released all of the eggs she will this time anyway. I'm hoping I have the late tie on my side! Her risks of pyometra are greatly increased with MisMate being late in her cycle and I would opt for c-section over abortion so I think #3 is the way to go for now!! ;)

Oh and diapers, belly bands & crates are not good 'barriers' when trying not to breed, we had a client who's pit bull tore the crap out of his penis breeding their golden retriever through a crate. And I hear all the time how dogs get bred through diapers/belly bands. Next time maybe have the boys stay with someone else when the girls are in season. I know it was a fluke with your MIL's help but accidents can & will happen, it's nature.
I totally agree! I just use them more for accident/spraying prevention. My method is total spearation with the dogs contained in crates in their separate areas. The girls and guys get playtime out but not in the same area as the boys nor at the same time. With my older chi, Cocoa, we had a very successful heat cycle using separate areas but after this experience I think a doggie vacation is in order next time!!

And yes, my intact male that needs altered should've already been altered but his surgery was pushed back by an unexpected broken bone. We had just made the decision not to use him as a stud a few weeks before Cocoa broke her foot. His surgery is next on the agenda. And no, I don't need lectures on only owning pets you can afford. We have a monthly budget of $200 for pet expenses above and beyond the $200 we spend on their routine food, toy, and grooming needs. We just had two bouts of unexplained diarrhea in our danes (which ended up being nothing but we did full workups to make sure - $400/each) which drained our extra budget money. We'll be back on track in a month or two just for those of you who felt the need to lecture in that area. Fellow breeders or those training to breed will understand where I'm coming from...we're not afratid to spend money on our dogs and don't care for the comments from others who don't understand. Um...where is that breeder forum application?? LOL

Thanks for all the responses. I've been reluctant about joining a Chi forum. I love my Great Dane forum but a friend had a bad experience with a Chi forum and breeders, in general, are often misunderstood and poorly treated in the forum arena. I look forward to getting to know the members of this forum better!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Views on human abortion or not get the mis mate jab it could save your puppies life!! If she becomes sterile so what!! She's alive she has puppies she could die!!

Dogs mate because they have too it's nature they will get through a crate a nappy and a belly band it's naive to think otherwise!! If he is going to be neutered the sensible thing to do would have been to do it before the bitch went into heat!!

Yes you've had an operation and recovering is never easy it would have made more sense to send one of the dogs way to someone else but anyway it's done now put your morals/religious views?? Aside were in 2010 and save your girls life
Where to begin...1) I don't believe her life is in danger. If she is, in fact, pregnant, her pregnancy will be monitored by ultrasound in a few weeks and then she will have x-rays prior to whelping. A c-section will be preformed if there are any concerns for her ability to whelp. The MisMate shot has side effects and some of them are very serious. Drugs should never be used without serious consideration.

2) I've addressed the delayed alterating of my male in my previous post - he was still being considered for my breeding program until recently.

3) I'm not sure why my moral/religious view are so puzzling "???" It's pretty simple. I value life. I value life in 2010 just as much as I valued it 10 or 15 years ago.

I'm not sure what kind of misinformation you've been fed but death is not the only outcome of a bitch bred too young. It's actually not even much of a risk if the pregnancy is managed by superior medical care.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I say save up your money & take her to the vet at day 28 post tie (they can palpate & do an u/s to see pups). Have an xray done around day 57-58 so they can count how many pups you should expect & also so they can measure her pelvis size compared to their head size. From there you will know if you should schedule a c-section or not.

I know accidents happen & there is really no way to keep them seperated safely in the same house. Next time I'd suggest either housing the boys in another place or your female. I can tell you that during her second heat Maribelle had an accidental tie with Marley (who was 7mo old) on her day 18. It was my fault 100%. I'd been great about keeping them seperated but one day everyone was snoozing (Mari was in another room double gated in) so I snuck into the bathroom for 5 minutes to shower. Opened the shower door to come out & heard Mari screaming. Ran out to find them in a tie & I nearly died. We had an u/s done at 28 weeks (there really is nothing the vet can do before then unless you were going to get the shot to prevent the pregnancy) & thankfully there were no pups.

THEN when Maya was in heat a couple months later (we were trying to get Marley neutered but his bloodwork was off so he needed meds for a few weeks before they could recheck & neuter) we left the pups...Marley was closed off in another room in a crate. The door to the room was SHUT & couldn't be opened unless the knob was turned. I was sure Maya was out of her heat (she has a super short heat of 2 weeks total but I was still playing it safe) and I kid you not we came home to them all running around together--the door that had been latched was opened. I still have no idea how the heck that happened....but where theres a will theres a way (and we know Marley can open crate doors from inside but the door knob I have NO idea!). Luckily Maya was in fact done with her heat so we were safe. I was sure no tie had occurred as they weren't interested in one another. But still. Again--our fault for having an intact male & female in the same house. I had been sure to keep them seperated because I so did NOT want to breed Maya (she is very thin framed). Marley is finally neutered & Maya will be spayed shortly. I'm SO relieved to not have any unaltered males in the house.

Anyway, we got lucky & didn't have any pups with our 2 "boo boos" (though really it was only one technical boo boo LOL). I hope for your pups sake that it doesn't take. But the best you can do now is keep her on a premium kibble & call the vet in a couple weeks to schedule an appt. to get her checked. Good luck to you!
THANK YOU, thank you, thank you for your helpful, informative, and appropriate post!!!! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with a similar situation as well as the situation you encountered when you thought all was safe! I will DEFINITELY be sending my intact male away for our next heat cycle after reading that!! He actually climbed out of his go-go pen in an attempt to reach Stella this time but hasn't figured out doors yet - LOL. Still, I have enough little "helping hands" in my home that doors could easily be left open by mistake and after this situation and hearing your story I'm convinced that he needs to go on a vacation next time! (Actually, he's the stud next time around but the time after that!!). :)

I'm actually going to take her in for a cytolgy smear on Tuesday to evaluate where she is in her cycle then I'll have her palpated and sent for an ultrasound in about 3-1/2-4 weeks. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!

Thanks, again, for sharing your story. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Best of luck, hopefully there will be no puppies. When Twiggy went into heat, I crated her and put the crate on top of the tv stand. It's 4 feet tall. She got taken out separately to potty and run around the back yard and in the house only if she was in my lap. Having puppies would probably hurt her tremendously due to her size and disabilities. Billy is going in tomorrow to get neutered, Tico in the next 2 weeks to get done then we will have no unaltered dogs except for her and Smoke and Pepper. She is going in tomorrow to the vet to see if she still isn't a candidate for spaying. I truly hope they think she can be, I know the dangers of having an unspayed female. And I need to see if they will neuter Smoke even with his seizures and elevated liver enzymes.
Thanks!! I'm sorry to hear your pups have health issues that contraindicate their surgery. That must be a tough situation! I'm glad to hear you've had success keeping them apart. Don't you just feel horrible for those boys, though?? LOL. They're pretty pathetic. I think for that reason alone I'll send my intact male away next time Stella goes into heat. I'm actually going to be using him at stud for Cocoa and she is due to come into heat next month so he'll have a chance to work off that frustration. Lucky, my male who will be altered, lived up to his name. Hopefully, I'll get lucky too and Stella will have been too late in her cycle to take!

Thanks for posting!! Your pups are A. DORA. BLE!!!
 

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I really know nothing about breeding. I certainly sympathize with you though. This must be so very frustrating for you! Mostly, I wanted to welcome you to the forum and look forward to hearing all the wonderful things about your fur babies!!!!
 

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Welcome to the board, You have come to the right place as we have some very knowledgeable members here. It sounds as if you have been doing your homework and I commend you on that. Mistakes do happen. I cannot really help much myself as I am not a breeder but just wanted to say that I hope all goes well.

I am on a few Dane boards as well but not as active on them as I was. I am more active on a GD breeders/exhibitors list and this forum keeps me busy.
 

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If you feel some of these replies were "inappropriate" (which CLEARLY you do from your replies) you should have simply ignored them. Instead, I am a little offended by your curtness to our obvious frustration. You can only expect people to be annoyed by this kind of situation, accidental or not. Also, your statement that only "breeders" know what you are talking about/are feeling makes me feel that you are already looking down on us. There are many educated people here (including Brody'sMom & DaisyDoo IMHO) even though they have choose not to breed.
Sorry if anyone thinks this posting was out of line. Just my 2cents worth.
 

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I really know nothing about breeding. I certainly sympathize with you though. This must be so very frustrating for you! Mostly, I wanted to welcome you to the forum and look forward to hearing all the wonderful things about your fur babies!!!!
Thanks for the warm welcome! It is frustrating but I have accepted that I can't change things. Also, meeting with my vet today helped relieve a lot of my concerns! I appreciate your kind words!
 

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Welcome to the board, You have come to the right place as we have some very knowledgeable members here. It sounds as if you have been doing your homework and I commend you on that. Mistakes do happen. I cannot really help much myself as I am not a breeder but just wanted to say that I hope all goes well.

I am on a few Dane boards as well but not as active on them as I was. I am more active on a GD breeders/exhibitors list and this forum keeps me busy.
Thank you for the lovely welcome! I have read posts on this board in the past and overall felt it seemed like a welcoming place to be. :) I'm on DOL and LOVE it there. I've noticed, though, that when you come on forums like these as a novice dog owner you are treated much differently than when you come as a breeder. I've read threads on DOL that are hurtful and judgmental to breeders and even exhibitors but I've been treated wonderfully as an owner new to the Dane breed. Funny how that is!

I'd love to see more pics of your show danes! I actually co-own my female dane, Elsa, with the breeder in case she turned out to be a show candidate but I think she's going to be too dark and "sooty" to win in the ring. Her head isn't totally to standard either and the breeder let us choose about cropping her ears and we went natural so I think she'll only be winning in our hearts! ;)
 
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Yes, it is tough going on any animal forum as a breeder no matter what the species. Most love the breed so much that they are really protective over it, problem is so many people differ in what is right and wrong and who should and shouldnt breed so you run into a lot of disagreements. It is almost impossible to please everyone and their beliefs. I know people that have been showing and breeding for decades and they are still defending themselves and their practices. It is just part of it, LOL! :)
 
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