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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all. Despite having him quarantined at another foster home during treatment, it seems that my dear Kahlua has come down with kennel cough because of little Ziggy. (He was on Doxycycline for 2 weeks, which is how long the previous vet said to keep him separated.) So long story short, vet prescribed Amoxicillin. I was fine with that; I know most strains of bordetella need to just run their course but the antibiotics prevent the secondary infections and I'd rather be proactive at preventing it. Kahlua does fine on antibiotics; but in general has a sensitive tummy. I wondered if anyone had any experience giving a probiotic product, like this:

Probiotics with Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil - Nutri-Vet



I'm considering it not just because shes on a course of antibiotics now; but in general it seems like it's beneficial to many dogs with a sensitive GI tract. I do know that refrigerated formulas of probiotics don't help; as once the good bacteria encounters body heat, it is destroyed. I also know I usually supplement her with fish oil capsules anyway for Omega-3's so this would cover both of those. So anyone used probiotics and care to give a review on the experience? Thanks!
 

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I am not familiar with the product but I like to tell you something about probiotics.

Hope you will understand me, because english isn't my first language.

First see the Gi track as an movie theater.
It's filled with seats.
On every seat there is 1 good bacteria sitting. The same as in the product. These will help your dog to break down the food.
When the movie theater is full, people can come in but they will walk through because there is no seat available.

So what will the product do for you???

When your dog is in good condition, it will do nothing, because all the seats are taken.

A product like this will only be usefull if your dog has been sick, has an operation, or has diarria for more than 2 days.
Because above are moments when bacteria get sweept from there seats, and there are seats to fill up.

Hope this will help you. This is what I learned at school, where I studied animal care/ vet assistant. Teached to us by an Vet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
VERY good information, thank you!!! She just seems under the weather now from the kennel cough. She was wheezing in the beginning; but has been doing better since being on the antibiotics to prevent bronchitis etc. Because of that, is why I was considering probiotics since I know the Amoxicillin destroys both good and bad bacteria.. so in that case, if the seats are being ushered out, she'll need to sell out the show to get them replaced. =D
 

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Your welcome.

And in here case she probably have to sell out LOL.
I think in here case it will be helpfull. But then I would only give it for a short time, and when her antobiotics are finished, and she is doing very well stop giving it.
About 1 week after finishing antibiotics the theater must be filled ;)

Another thing....

In the Netherlands there is a product on the market named Yakult. It's a probiotics drink for people, you can buy at the supermarket.
This will also be good enough for your chi!!
So if you can buy a similair product in the supermarket for a lower price than the "specially for dogs stuff" I would consider that.
Just give her 1 - 2 table spoons a day.
 

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I have.

First with Hope's chronic colitis and now since she has been on antibiotics about very other month since September (non-lipoma, non-sebaceous cyst nodules she keeps producing. Pathology shows inflamed cells and infection. A mystery.).

Now, her holistic vet has put her on Prozyme and Chinese herbs. Those combined with her ZP and Nupro, I feel like she is covered.
 

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I am of the opinion that a good human pro-biotic product is probably better than a dog specific product. Products that claim to have probiotics for humans are more closely regulated, so personally I use a human product when one of my dogs are on antibiotics. With a pet product you really don't know what you are getting. It also seems that they are more useful if given a few hours after you give the antibiotic, because if you give them with it the antibiotic will just kill off all the good bacteria before it can get anywhere.
 

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I would give my left leg to be able to secure dog probiotics here, there's only one brand & they'd virtually useless - 1 strain only which is, of course, lacto bac. This is the probiotic in Yakult (which I love & sorts my tummy right out from time to time) and this particular probiotic IS found in dog's systems.

However, the other bacteria types found in human systems is vastly different to that of dogs, both because of their pH compared to ours, level of acidity in their stomachs and the shortness of their intestines, therefore the speed with which the food rushes through - completely different bacterias for different species, always.

I'm also a great believer in feeding enzymes, especially with age because as we and dogs get older the enzymes die and are not replaced effectively.

I intend to source the very best pro'bs & enzymes available in USA or UK and get them here no matter what it takes or costs, stupid dang govt. rules when it does no-one or any thing any harm.
 

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Do you have any links to information about studies showing what bacteria are usefull to dogs. Because even holistic vets I have talked to have told me a good human product with lots of different strains is the way to go.
I am on my phone, so my posting of links is a little limited, but the company I get all my supplements from Natures Farmacy, has a dog probiotic product and I remember googling the bacteria vthey provide and finding it in several human products. Since the human products are subject to random testing to prove they do in fact have live bacteria in them I tend to truse them more. Also it could be that in an effort to loook like a good product a lot of these things are throwing in every strain they can get their hands on regardless of how able they are to survive in the human system. Therefore some of the strains are good for dogs- just a thought.

What you are saying makes sense to me, as dogs digestive systems are totally dofferent from ours, I just have always heard something a little different when it comes to the strains in our products. I always am intirested to learn more!
 

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I just wanted to be clear too- that the oversignt of human products is not govermental, but is conducted by a trade organization with the copyright of the "live and active cultures" seal that is on many products in the US. No seal, then there is probably no guarantee what's in there. I am nearly sure this trade organization is only in the US and I am not sure what the comparable thing would be in other countries, or if there are government regulations other places.

Also apoligies for the grammar, I am on the phone cause the real internet is out and I can't scroll up to spell check! Grrr
 

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I just started my chi on the probiotic THe Missing Link Plus. I've heard a lot of good things about this product in the past. The info I've heard here has me confused now about only keeping them on it a short time.
 

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Hmm, let's see, I studied for endless hours skipping & searching all over the place so it's hard to recall what I read & where.

The main points that sunk in to my addled brain is that the dog PB's are "stabilised" which gives them the chance to get right deep into the gut before reacting rather than being destroyed by low pH or other acids before they got into the true digestive part of the stomach. Also, another important factor is that every single dog's gut flora is different based on their diet, among other things.

I also recall reading about some dog PB's advertise so many different wondrous strains in terms of billions & trillions of "live bacteria" and it's all a crock, merely an advertising farce. There is one particular PB in dogs, Enterococcus faecium, that's not in human PB's to my knowledge, and it's mentioned in the first link provided below.

As an aside: The other thing I remember is that with enzymes, mix them into the food and let it stand for about 10 minutes to give them a chance to start developing is most beneficial. Also, apparently enzymes die as we get older and are not replaced so, to my mind, they are super beneficial to the digestion of young pups and older dogs. I actually make my own enzyme fruit juice drink that I'm about to start drinking - hopefully it'll clear the fog in the head and these unco fingers that don't type what the brain is dictating lol :)

Probiotics For Dogs - Canine probiotics - Pet Probiotics

Interesting info on strains & technical mumbo jumbo from one of the brands I was hoping to get: Probiotics for Pets: Understanding Strains and CFUs

A great article on herbal PRE-biotics, to help PB's along, in the form of inulin: Probiotics for Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Canadian Vet Uni article showing how some PB strains "adhere" in humans but probably not dogs: Preliminary evaluation of Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain GG, a potential probiotic in dogs

I'll add more as I come across them at a later date.
 

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Hmm, let's see, I studied for endless hours skipping & searching all over the place so it's hard to recall what I read & where.

The main points that sunk in to my addled brain is that the dog PB's are "stabilised" which gives them the chance to get right deep into the gut before reacting rather than being destroyed by low pH or other acids before they got into the true digestive part of the stomach. Also, another important factor is that every single dog's gut flora is different based on their diet, among other things.

I also recall reading about some dog PB's advertise so many different wondrous strains in terms of billions & trillions of "live bacteria" and it's all a crock, merely an advertising farce. There is one particular PB in dogs, Enterococcus faecium, that's not in human PB's to my knowledge, and it's mentioned in the first link provided below.

As an aside: The other thing I remember is that with enzymes, mix them into the food and let it stand for about 10 minutes to give them a chance to start developing is most beneficial. Also, apparently enzymes die as we get older and are not replaced so, to my mind, they are super beneficial to the digestion of young pups and older dogs. I actually make my own enzyme fruit juice drink that I'm about to start drinking - hopefully it'll clear the fog in the head and these unco fingers that don't type what the brain is dictating lol :)

Probiotics For Dogs - Canine probiotics - Pet Probiotics

Interesting info on strains & technical mumbo jumbo from one of the brands I was hoping to get: Probiotics for Pets: Understanding Strains and CFUs

A great article on herbal PRE-biotics, to help PB's along, in the form of inulin: Probiotics for Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Canadian Vet Uni article showing how some PB strains "adhere" in humans but probably not dogs: Preliminary evaluation of Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain GG, a potential probiotic in dogs

I'll add more as I come across them at a later date.
Interesting. A lot of those articles are from people who sell probiotics or are raving about the Purina product- and never was there a more evil and less trustworthy company than nestle. But the whole dog journal article and the vet one were interesting. I still must be missing something here though, cause all of the strains listed in those articles are also found in human products except that one you mentioned. And human products that are suspended in any sort of fruit juice are all stabilized.

It seems to me that everyone is jumping on this pro biotic bandwagon and putting whatever in their products hoping for the best (for dogs and humans). The scientific evidence about any of this stuff is so lacking it is impossible to tell what from what. At least with a human product you have some assurance that there actually is live bacteria in it, and that is why I think they are the best bet. Most of the dog probiotics out there are either dead and useless bacteria, or so little bacteria that it makes no difference at all. I just re-read the chapter out of a book I look to often "Feed your pet right" by Marion Nestle and she says about the same thing in that book. She even seems to believe studies have shown the probiotics in yogurt do survive dogs digestive process but I would need to see more studies on that. Unfortunately even there all the studies cited are from people who make money off selling probiotics. 90% of what is out there in google is just people writing things without any proof behind it, it is difficult to sort through.
 

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Interesting. A lot of those articles are from people who sell probiotics or are raving about the Purina product- and never was there a more evil and less trustworthy company than nestle. But the whole dog journal article and the vet one were interesting. I still must be missing something here though, cause all of the strains listed in those articles are also found in human products except that one you mentioned. And human products that are suspended in any sort of fruit juice are all stabilized.
Huh? I saw one single mention of Purina and that was the name of their probiotics in the first link, I certainly read no "raving" about it?

The first link is from a Veterinary Surgeon who speaks of the benefits of probiotics generally, and he puts forward 4 x "popular brands" for people to consider & research - how's he trying to sell anything? I see no link to order product from him, maybe I missed it?

Whilst the 2nd link does indeed relate to an actual purveyor of probiotics, specifically the brand Nusentia, it is nonetheless, jam packed with links to various published scientific studies, articles etc. I presumed that's the part of the article you would read, not the sales & marketing bump.

The 3rd link is not relating to probiotics per se, rather, it's about PREbiotics, meaning it's a product taken prior to the probiotics to increase their efficacy - I just threw that in there out of interests sake. I've seen many prebiotics available for sale from all sorts of manufacturers, mainly the naturopathic, tree-hugging, greenie type, and a lot of people swearing they're the best thing since sliced bread.

The final link is, of course, the very complex one done by a Veterinary University in Canada, if memory serves me correctly, so no-one hawking their goods.

Basically the science fraternity all agree unanimously that probiotics advertised in processed dog food is pure, utter BS - either they're dead, simply not there at all upon analysis (scurrilous lies & false advertising) or, if they are there, in such minute numbers, chances of survival is absolutely minimal.

Hence, to my mind, feeding a high grade brand from a coy. that's spend $1m's on research & development, that has all the right strains (especially the aforementioned one &, most importantly, the "Lacto animalis" or whatever it's called one, can only be beneficial.

Clearly, the proof is going to be in the pudding isn't it - visible by the dog's general health, stamina, fresher breath, better coat, consistent perfect poops, and heaven only knows what else will manifest as a result of having their gut re-packed with new or more of a strain/s.

I do know from my many & succesful tropical fish tanks that I have running is that bacteria will only grow and then die off according to the bioload in needs to deal with i.e. remove half the fish & half the bacteria will die.

Conversely, add an extra 50% of fish in one hit, and you're likely to suffer a massive ammonia spike until the bacteria can proliferate to the level it needs to be to process the bioload being crapped out by the extra critters.

Dose the tank with antibiotics and you'll kill ALL bacteria and have to start the "cycling process", as we call it, right from scratch again.

Sounds familiar? A bit like a dog's guts - it's absolutely identical in fact, that's what bacteria do in animals, out of animals, that's their purpose in life, to completely BALANCE their environment so it's completely harmonious - stuff goes in, gets pooped out, bacteria sorts it, well & truly. The more environment specific good strains the better, regardless of whose guts, filters, cheese factories etc. you're dealing with.
 

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Interesting debate!! Didn't realize there was so much controversy with Probiotics?! Love reading this thread as it brings to light so much that is unknown. I was going to ask if anyone has tried the Missing Link Plus and had results, but now I feel like I've probably wasted my money. Definitely a great topic to research!!
 

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My holistic Vet and holistic nutrionist is the one who suggested the Acidophilus for my kids. Gibbs gets yeast on his feet and being bassets it helps keep ear infections away. My chis get very little just here and there as needed but being young healthy pups they honestly have never been on antibiotics etc.

Huly was the one my vet prescribed it for as a vet in her office (long story short she was out and Huly was seriosly ill and instead of calling her on what to give Huly the regular vet OD him on antibiotics). We were giving him greek yogurt while he took them and when she came back she added FortiFlora probiotics as the antibiotics might upset his stomach but decided to let him finish the dose.

FortiFlora® Canine Nutritional Supplements | Purina Veterinary Diets
 
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