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My Chenelle

My Sadie is 15 weeks old and she is grey and tan. I have heard that greys are pretty rare. Just wondered if anyone else on here has one and if there's anything unique to them other than the color?
I personally think blues are rare,they certainly are in demand,2 years ago february after having yorkies for 30 yearsI got my litle blue girl.I was ecstic.Then 3 weeks later I had a home invasion,she was taken along with my louis vitton bag containing may pain and anxiety meds,alot of cash and gift cards,I was crushed,I now know it was an inside job.Some of you already know of this.
I moved last April.
 

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I don't find breeding blue or lilacs (IE: Isabellas) to be difficult. You just need to understand your breeding stock's genetics.

Here is an example:

Rupert our foundation male is black but we know he carries the blue dilute gene, ticking, irish/border collie markings as well as the parti color/piebald genes. He is a genetically dominant stud and he is so dominant - he has yet to produce a long haired even when bred to long haired females. He ALWAYS has a blue puppy in each litter and every puppy ever sired by him has a white patch of fur on their chest (we call that his tramp stamp).

Tia our foundation female is blue but also carries ticking, irish/border collie markings as well as the parti color/piebald genes.

When Rupert and Tia are bred they produce 45.4% blue puppies, 36.4% black puppies and 18.2% lilac puppies. Thus far we have had 63.6% males and 36.4% females. 18.2% of the puppies have presented with the irish/border collie markings - out of those one was a blue with irish/border collie markings and the other was lilac irish/border collie markings . 0% particolor/piebald markings. 100% have shown ticking either minimal or extreme.

Overall as a stud, Rupert has had 45.8% black puppies, 45.8% blue puppies and 0.08% Lilac puppies. He has had 16.7% of his puppies have the irish/border collie markings. 0% particolor/piebald markings. 100% have shown ticking either minimal or extreme.

Here is a photo showing Tia (blue), Geddy (lilac) and Rupert (black).



If a breeder understands genetics and their stock - getting blues, lilacs or any other color is not difficult (except for albino's which is a complete lack of pigmentation usually the result of a mutation but can be bred from albino stock if you have it).

It just takes effort to understand genetics.

Blue is very easy to get as many black dogs carry the blue dilute gene as a recessive. Once you know your male/female carries it - to get lilac just breed that dog to a blue or black with recessive blue.

Lol, I have to correct you here. You don't get issabella (lilac? it's kind of confusing for everybody if you use more terms for the same gene. It's Isabbela and it's bbdd) by breeding a black dog with the dilute gene to a blue or black with the blue gene (blue is ALWAYS recessive) because dillute IS blue. In orther to get isabella, both parents need to carry the dillute (D-locus, blue) and the liver gene (B-locus, liver). If you mate a Blue chihuahua (dd) to a liver chihuahua (bb) you don't automatically get the isabbella colour.Because the blue chihuahua also needs to carry the liver gene (so Bbdd) and the liver needs to carry blue (bbDd). If any of the parents doesn't cary one of thes genes (bbDD x Bbdd or BBdd x bbDd ) you'll never get isabella.

You can only know what the genes of your dog are, if you get them DNA tested. And many breeders don't test them, why should you?

Ofcourse its easier to get blue dogs if you have two dogs, one carrying the dilute gene and one thats blue (2 dilute genes). When you breed those 2, you'll have 50% chance of blue (dd) dogs.

Irish spottig and piebald are genes on the S-locus. They are recessive so a dog needs to have 2 of those genes to express this. Ticking is on the T-locus. And it's a dominant gene, thats why a dog needs only one gene to express ticking. It can only occur on white areas though.
 

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Lol, I have to correct you here. You don't get issabella (lilac? it's kind of confusing for everybody if you use more terms for the same gene. It's Isabbela and it's bbdd) by breeding a black dog with the dilute gene to a blue or black with the blue gene (blue is ALWAYS recessive) because dillute IS blue. In orther to get isabella, both parents need to carry the dillute (D-locus, blue) and the liver gene (B-locus, liver). If you mate a Blue chihuahua (dd) to a liver chihuahua (bb) you don't automatically get the isabbella colour.Because the blue chihuahua also needs to carry the liver gene (so Bbdd) and the liver needs to carry blue (bbDd). If any of the parents doesn't cary one of thes genes (bbDD x Bbdd or BBdd x bbDd ) you'll never get isabella.

You can only know what the genes of your dog are, if you get them DNA tested. And many breeders don't test them, why should you?

Ofcourse its easier to get blue dogs if you have two dogs, one carrying the dilute gene and one thats blue (2 dilute genes). When you breed those 2, you'll have 50% chance of blue (dd) dogs.

Irish spottig and piebald are genes on the S-locus. They are recessive so a dog needs to have 2 of those genes to express this. Ticking is on the T-locus. And it's a dominant gene, thats why a dog needs only one gene to express ticking. It can only occur on white areas though.
If you breed your dogs correctly and watch what they get based on who you breed them to you will find out what genetics they carry and perpetuate. You don't need to resort to DNA testing for it. It is process of elimination based on knowing your lines and in genetics it is called test breeding.

You will find that most genes/locus etc have more than one name as there hasn't been an official naming of them done in a standardized form and often depending on the breed of dog or species - the naming will change.

The D locus is the dilution locus and it can act on black or brown colors. The B locus is for browns/blacks (or as it is sometimes called liver).

The one genetic code for their coat colour also breaks down into two forms: eumelanin and phaeomelanin both which act in different ways on the coat pigmentation.

eumelanin is responsible for the protein that forms the framework of the pigment granule and phaeomelanin is the second pigmentation that is your yellows, creams, reds etc. The genetic make up of the dogs determine where each pigment goes etc.

Then you have a second genetic code to detail where/when these colors show on the coat and where they stop (irish/border collie, ticking etc).

Since a puppy is born with two alleles at each locus as inherited from it's parents genetics is not as simple as dd. Which is why I guess some find it difficult but really it is not so complication to get what you want out of your stock if you know what you have.

Tia is out of a black male that carried the dilute gene and a piebald (white and tan) female.

Rupert is out of a black male that carried the dilute gene and a piebald (white with black and extreme ticking) female.

Yes they both have dds and bbs but that is assumed based on their lines there would be no other alternative. Which is why when bred together they only produce blacks, blues and lilacs.

When dealing with a dog - they will carry more genes than just a single dd or bb.

They inherit genes from their parents and one (or both) of those parents was carrying the dilute gene so the likelihood of getting a double dilute is higher when you breed a dilute to a dog that carries a dilute gene - it is common sense.

I know that Rupert won't produce lilacs with certain females but I know if I chose to continue to breed Tia (which I am now as she is retired now) that I would have a consistent line of lilacs.

Blues are lovely but really shouldn't be considered rare. There are too many of them out there in Chihuahuas to be considered rare.

Blue in other breeds - could very well be rare but as a rule to breed single dilute dogs, it really doesn't take a huge amount of effort - just a little research before investing in breeding stock.
 

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I never said blue is rare. I said it's hard to breed. I said isabella is rare. It IS rare in this breed, because it's so hard to breed. I know a lot about genetics, I even talk to genetic experts a lot. So I really didn't need the explanation about eumelanin and phaeomelanin and the other stuff.

I also know dogs have more than bbdd. BUT bbdd is NECESSARY for a dog to be isabella. With bbdd all the 'black' haires are turned into isabella. It is hard to breed bbdd dogs. No question about that. It happens to be true that you have two dogs that carry both the blue and liver gene. So it's 'easy' for you to breed blue's or isabella's. But for others it isn't easy at all. Maybe you have to think of that too.
 

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I'd like to ask a question and I mean no offense by it. I'm just extremely curious. If the Blue and Fawn genes have a chance to carry the Color Mutant Alopecia why would you (I mean breeders, not anyone specific) purposely breed these colors. From what little I read (and I know nothing of genes ets..) You would never know a blue pup has this until between 4 months and 3 years. Otherwise they look like perfectly fine pups with nice coats? What a shock to owners later when they don't realize this could happen. And do ALL blues/fawns develop this?

I came really close to getting a LC blue chi and never knew anything about color mutant alopecia in chihuahaus. The breeder never mentioned that such a thing was possible.
 

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Well I don't know what you mean by 'fawn' but what I mean by 'fawn' is actually sable. 'Fawn' dogs are actually clear sables (Ay). A sable can be complete red (fawn if you wish) or red (and 'red' is from blond to deep red as in Irish Setters) with black/brown/blue/isabella hairs. Keeffer is a sable. First he was a really dark sable, now he has almost no black hairs anymore. Your Sassy is a sable too. And willow is also sable.

I thought sables didn't had Alopecia. Blues and Browns (liver) can have alopecia. In my opinion you shouldn't breed blue to blue or liver to liver. I love the liver colour though. You find alopecia more often in blues than in livers. But not all blue or liver dogs have alopecia. Also SC dogs can have alopecia. Some have it on the ears, their ears have no hair at all. I think you shouldn't breed those dogs, but I know some breeders don't care about it.

This is a sable (most people call this fawn)


This is also a sable (look at the black hairs on the tail)
 

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I'd like to ask a question and I mean no offense by it. I'm just extremely curious. If the Blue and Fawn genes have a chance to carry the Color Mutant Alopecia why would you (I mean breeders, not anyone specific) purposely breed these colors. From what little I read (and I know nothing of genes ets..) You would never know a blue pup has this until between 4 months and 3 years. Otherwise they look like perfectly fine pups with nice coats? What a shock to owners later when they don't realize this could happen. And do ALL blues/fawns develop this?

I came really close to getting a LC blue chi and never knew anything about color mutant alopecia in chihuahaus. The breeder never mentioned that such a thing was possible.
Not all dilute breeding lines carry the gene that causes the Alopecia. So it is important for breeders considering purchasing stock that carries the dilute genes or a dilute dog - to research the lines before hand.

It seems like the gene responsible for determining where the color goes on the hairs - is responsible for this but no conclusive studies have been done on the inheritance/frequency or genetic mapping of this.

So no, all blues/fawns don't have this occur. I have seen more blue Chihuahuas have this than fawn ones - in fact I haven't come across a fawn Chi yet who has had it.

None of our dogs have Alopecia nor do any of their ancestors but again, it comes down to screening your stock - knowing your lines etc. It is possible that you could go back so far and see nothing but have a hidden recessive for that which would pop up - but then a responsible breeder would sterilize that line of stock.

I don't think breeding for color is ethical. You should be breeding for health, temperament and type (in that order in my opinion) - interesting colors are a nice bonus but shouldn't be the goal.

Alopecia usually starts to show around 6 months when the blue areas start to thin - however in extreme cases it can present even earlier and in dogs with darker coats it can appear later. However even before the thinning starts - there are usually some warning signs that a breeder/owner should pick up on.

Usually dogs will suffer from dry skin, bumps and possibly even bacterial infections in the hair follicles.

A breeder might choose to not mention Alopecia for a couple of reasons:
- they are trying to hide it
- it is not in their lines

However, I believe in being transparent to puppy owners and explaining the genetics behind their dog etc so Alopecia always comes up eventually :)
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I just want to know what you think about Sadie

I finally got her picture uploaded - it's on page 3 of this thread and I wondered if she is considered "blue" or grey or what? Thanks for all the input :)
 

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I finally got her picture uploaded - it's on page 3 of this thread and I wondered if she is considered "blue" or grey or what? Thanks for all the input :)
I can't help with the color thing. I just wanted to say "She is beautiful"!
Some of these other people will be along shortly and they will know.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
thanks ya'll I think she's a cutie

I just love her so much I wouldn't have thought I could get so attached to a dog so quickly. She is so sweet and she has such a cute personality.
 

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Blue Chi

Jake is a blue Chi! I never had a chihuahua before and didn't know he was any different til I took him for his first check up! He also is a little deformed and the Vet said it could be because they breed them to be this color! His bottom Jaw didn't grow and he can't shut his mouth so his tongue hangs out all the time! And his ears are busted! HAHA They don't stand up. And of course the laxated patella! On both knees! That just makes him the best dog in the world to us! He is so sweet too!
 

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You guys lost my way back there:eek:
I Have one question though. What is issabella and what does it look like?
Also Do chocolotes get Alopecia?
Isabella (also known as Lilac) is a coat color. It is a double dilution of the black gene (it is denoted as being ddbb genetically).

It is rare and very pretty in person. Our male Geddy has actually stopped traffic on several occasions as people want to see him, take photos etc. I could have paid off the mortgage on our farm for what one person from California offered us for him but we wouldn't sell him to anyone - he is our little man and I waited 4 years to get the "perfect" Lilac from our breeding program.

Here are a few photos of Geddy. He is a Lilac male with the Irish/Border Collie markings which means that he has white: on all four paws (like socks), on the tip of his tail, on his face (in a blaze and around his nose), on his chest and on his neck (he has a cross shape on the back which is considered a half-collar).

In most lighting you can markedly see he has a purple tinge to his coat.

His eyes are extremely light blue (almost transparent) - in some lighting situations it makes them appear purple (as they are so translucent you can see the blood flowing in his eyes and with the blue it "mixes").











If I had a Chocolate Chihuahua to add to the last photo - you would see a very marked difference in the appearance of Lilac/Isabella, the Fawn and the Chocolate.

Chocolates technically could get Alopecia but in Chihuahuas it is mainly seen in blues. There hasn't been a Chocolate yet that I am aware of that has presented with Alopecia but again, since it is a dilute it is possible.
 

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Thank you for the explanation orchardlane. The Lilac color is beautiful. Do you have pics of Geddy when he is older? Love to see them.
 
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