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Discussion Starter #1
Can two 5-6lb parents produce smaller offspring?
Can two longer nosed chis produce shorter nose chis? (im guessing prob not on that one!)
What should u look for in the parents of chi pups?
 

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Can two 5-6lb parents produce smaller offspring?
Can two longer nosed chis produce shorter nose chis? (im guessing prob not on that one!)
What should u look for in the parents of chi pups?
Yes, two 5-6 lb parents CAN produce smaller offspring, but unless they have a history of doing so, don't believe a word anyone says! Generally, chis wind up being close to the size of their same sex parent.

Oakley is from a 4.5 lb daddy, and a 7 lb mamma. Oakley is 3.5 lbs...full grown. She is an exception to the norm.

Trigger is from a 7 lb mamma (Oakley's) and a different 4.5 lb dad and will probably be around 8 lbs as an adult.

Two longer nosed chis will definitely NOT produce short muzzled puppies.

A bigger momma is ok, 5-7 lbs is safest for the momma. But Dad should be 3-5 lbs max, best if he's 3-4.5 lbs. Short muzzles, erect ears, level toplines and good bites are all important in the parents. Temperament is often passed down to puppies so overly shy dogs will likely produce overly shy puppies...socialization can help but you're never going to have an overly social dog. Healthy looking and health tested, fed quality food and living as in home pets are important for parent chis as well. =)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes, two 5-6 lb parents CAN produce smaller offspring, but unless they have a history of doing so, don't believe a word anyone says! Generally, chis wind up being close to the size of their same sex parent.

Oakley is from a 4.5 lb daddy, and a 7 lb mamma. Oakley is 3.5 lbs...full grown. She is an exception to the norm.

Trigger is from a 7 lb mamma (Oakley's) and a different 4.5 lb dad and will probably be around 8 lbs as an adult.

Two longer nosed chis will definitely NOT produce short muzzled puppies.

A bigger momma is ok, 5-7 lbs is safest for the momma. But Dad should be 3-5 lbs max, best if he's 3-4.5 lbs. Short muzzles, erect ears, level toplines and good bites are all important in the parents. Temperament is often passed down to puppies so overly shy dogs will likely produce overly shy puppies...socialization can help but you're never going to have an overly social dog. Healthy looking and health tested, fed quality food and living as in home pets are important for parent chis as well. =)
Thank u! Thats really helpfull, ye i figured about the noses!
Wat are toplines exactly? sorry if thats a stupid question!
 

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Thank u! Thats really helpfull, ye i figured about the noses!
Wat are toplines exactly? sorry if thats a stupid question!
No not a stupid question at all! I didn't know mattered whatsoever til I started looking at show dogs. If the dog is standing or moving, it's back should be "flat" ... like this : _______________ but sometimes, esp. in pet quality chi's there is a bit of a curve that occurs, so the back looks more like a rainbow shape just not as drastic...think a sideways one of these --> ( Personally I think a good topline in even a pet chi is important because it speaks for overall structure.

Some dogs have lower tail settings that can make their back appear slightly arched when in reality they have "flat" toplines.
 

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The full growth size of a Chi really has nothing to do with the parents size. It's all in the genetics. You can research this if you'd like. There is a lot of interesting info. out there that will answer your questions. Also, there is discussion on Chi's being full grown when the "knobs" on the outside of their legs aren't apparent anymore. Just because you can't see the growth plates from the outside, doesn't mean they are closed. Most small breeds growth plates close between 9 and 12 months of age. This means their height and length will be determined at that age. A Chi is considered to be "full grown" at 12 months. But they will gain some weight even after that point while they are filling out up until 2 years of age. And there are documented cases of Chi's having x-rays even after 12 months of age and still having opened growth plates. Another way to get some idea of when your Chi is full grown is by their teeth. If they have lost all of their baby teeth, and have been replaced with 42 adult teeth, chances are they are grown, or very near. This is one of the ways that Vets determine age.

Size Genetics...
Article: The Genetics of Size
Author: MindiBown Kennels

I'm sure at least some of you have wondered at the amazing variation in size when looking at Chihuahuas.
Of even greater mystery may be watching 2 normal or even quite large parents produce a tiny, tiny offspring.
How can that happen?

It's pure genetics.

The gene that controls size is different from most in so much as it has 6 parts, or alleles, and that each parent passes on 3 of theirs. Which 3 is pure Tattslotto stuff. Spin the wheel and see what numbers drop.

The size alleles can be best described as either + or -. We then add the 6 together and get a total. With six present in any living mammal we have an infinite variety of variations.

For example: +,+,+,-,-,-, = 3 of each. Think of the +'s as "up 1", and the -'s as "down 1" The first three cancels out the next three so we end up with 0, or your proverbial "Average".

How about +,-,+,-,-,-. Add them up and we get 2 up and four down. end result = 2 down or below average size.

One more. +,+,+,+,+,-. 5 up and 1 down = 4 up. or in other words, a BIG boy.

Are you starting to get the idea?

Ok, let's start passing things on to the kids.
Let's take 2 average parents. +,+,+,-,-,-. = Dad and +,+,+,-,-,-. = Mum. Let's give them a litter of 3.

Pup 1. We'll take (at random) -,-,+. 2 minuses and 1 plus from Dad and let's say -,+,+. 1 minus and 2 pluses from Mum.

Pup one therefore is -,-,+,-,+,+. up and down we end up back at 0, or average size.
An average size pup from 2 average sized parents. What else would you expect?


Well how about Pup 2?

We'll have -,-,-. 3 minuses from Mum AND -,-,-. three minuses from Dad. What size pup do we get?
-,-,-,-,-,-. down, down, and down again 6 times means one very tiny pup.

For Pup3

We'll go the opposite. Let's have all the pluses that both Mum and Dad can give.
That's a total of +,+,+,+,+,+. 6 ups or a Chihuahua masquerading as an elephant.

AND ALL THREE FROM AVERAGE PARENTS
That's the best part.

But when you see how size is inherited, it all starts to make sense doesn't it?

But genetics is only half the story with size.
It's been fairly well documented that the human race is getting bigger and bigger with each generation. When you look through museum reproductions of early settler's cottages etc. the height of doorways and the length of beds stand out as being so small by today's standards.

This growth in the human population has been put down to an improvement in diet and better health care.

Science has pretty well proven that diet has played a major role in this phenomena. Diet is just one factor in what is generally referred to as "Environment". And environment plays a major role in the size of Chihuahuas as well.

There is more to size in Chihuahuas than pure inherited genetics. Environment plays a definite role, as does an as yet unknown genetic link to problem areas in the Chihuahua physique that inhibits growth.

Same goes for "looks." It's genetics. If you have two long muzzle parents that have short muzzles somewhere in their lines, they will come out somewhere.
 

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Yes, two 5-6 lb parents CAN produce smaller offspring, but unless they have a history of doing so, don't believe a word anyone says! Generally, chis wind up being close to the size of their same sex parent.

The size of the puppies will be determined by not only the parents, but what's behind the parents, and how the genes mix to produce the puppies. If the grandparents are big, the puppies may very well be big too. You want a history of similar sized dogs to get a better chance of having a particular sized adult dog. If you want one that's 5-6 pounds, you want parents, grands, and great grands, on both sides, that are that size. And it's still just a good guestimate. Another thing to consider is the breeding pair, whether it's a total outcross, if it's a line breeding, or it's a closer line breeding considered inbreeding. Outcrosses tend to produce bigger puppies. Close line breeding tends to produce smaller pups.

Two longer nosed chis will definitely NOT produce short muzzled puppies.

Muzzles are gonna fall in the same line as the size. It's possible but not very likely to happen. Again, it's gonna be what's behind the parents and how the pairing matches up. With that said, if you don't want a long muzzle, I wouldn't be looking at a puppy from parents with long muzzles. Chances are more likely than not that the puppies will have long muzzles.

A bigger momma is ok, 5-7 lbs is safest for the momma. But Dad should be 3-5 lbs max, best if he's 3-4.5 lbs. Short muzzles, erect ears, level toplines and good bites are all important in the parents. Temperament is often passed down to puppies so overly shy dogs will likely produce overly shy puppies...socialization can help but you're never going to have an overly social dog. Healthy looking and health tested, fed quality food and living as in home pets are important for parent chis as well. =)
This is a very old breeding philosophy and isn't generally used with today's understanding of genetics. First point is that 7 pounds is oversized and shouldn't be bred. If they are not to Standard, that takes them out of the breeding pool. Second point is one that goes back to size. You don't breed big to little in order to get medium. There's absolutely no reason to breed a big bitch to a small stud. A 6 pound bitch bred to a 4 pound stud is not going to produce a litter of puppies that are 5 pounds. Genetics doesn't take an "average" when determining size. In the ideal world, both parents would be in the 4 - 5.5 pound range, along with their parents, grands, and great grands. I wouldn't specifically be looking for sires that are in the 3-4 pound range if you're looking at pups from show breeders, which of course, is the recommended source. It's extremely difficult to finish a dog of either sex under 4 pounds. You also shouldn't be hearing stories of how they have brood bitches and show dogs. The girls should be meeting the Standard just like the boys. It's not OK to breed oversized bitches any more than it is to breed oversized dogs. The fact that this continues to be done is the reason we continue to have oversized Chis. It's not necessary and is a detrement to our breed.

I agree with most of the rest. You want parents that resemble what you want your puppy to look like. However, the reason many are placed as pets is because they are slightly high in the rear, have a terrier front, ear set is too high/low, tail set too high/low, or the bite is off. None of this, unless it's extreme, will affect the ability of the puppy to be a loving, long lived companion. Notice I said as long as it's not extreme. If the parents are sound, sometimes you still end up with a puppy with one of these issues that takes them out of the breeding program/show ring but it's still a lovley dog. Bite would probably be the most prevalent thing, as with shorter muzzles, you run the risk of having an overshot or undershot bite. Again, unless it's severe, it doesn't affect the puppy. These are things that are absolutely important to the breed as a whole, and the highest standards must be used to judge a puppy's potential when considering reproduction, but they don't all adversly affect the life of the puppy. For example, while a dog that's high in the rear is not "structurally sound" and shouldn't be bred, it doesn't "hurt" the dog.

I hope I've explained this lightly enough so that you understand what I'm trying to say without going into a bunch of genetics that tend to boggle the brains and still convey why some things are important when breeding but not necessarily so when considering a pet puppy. If I've caused confusion, please let me know and I'll try to break it down better.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
No not a stupid question at all! I didn't know mattered whatsoever til I started looking at show dogs. If the dog is standing or moving, it's back should be "flat" ... like this : _______________ but sometimes, esp. in pet quality chi's there is a bit of a curve that occurs, so the back looks more like a rainbow shape just not as drastic...think a sideways one of these --> ( Personally I think a good topline in even a pet chi is important because it speaks for overall structure.

Some dogs have lower tail settings that can make their back appear slightly arched when in reality they have "flat" toplines.
Ok thanks i understand now, i guessed it was to do with their backs!

The full growth size of a Chi really has nothing to do with the parents size. It's all in the genetics. You can research this if you'd like. There is a lot of interesting info. out there that will answer your questions. Also, there is discussion on Chi's being full grown when the "knobs" on the outside of their legs aren't apparent anymore. Just because you can't see the growth plates from the outside, doesn't mean they are closed. Most small breeds growth plates close between 9 and 12 months of age. This means their height and length will be determined at that age. A Chi is considered to be "full grown" at 12 months. But they will gain some weight even after that point while they are filling out up until 2 years of age. And there are documented cases of Chi's having x-rays even after 12 months of age and still having opened growth plates. Another way to get some idea of when your Chi is full grown is by their teeth. If they have lost all of their baby teeth, and have been replaced with 42 adult teeth, chances are they are grown, or very near. This is one of the ways that Vets determine age.

Size Genetics...
Article: The Genetics of Size
Author: MindiBown Kennels

I'm sure at least some of you have wondered at the amazing variation in size when looking at Chihuahuas.
Of even greater mystery may be watching 2 normal or even quite large parents produce a tiny, tiny offspring.
How can that happen?

It's pure genetics.

The gene that controls size is different from most in so much as it has 6 parts, or alleles, and that each parent passes on 3 of theirs. Which 3 is pure Tattslotto stuff. Spin the wheel and see what numbers drop.

The size alleles can be best described as either + or -. We then add the 6 together and get a total. With six present in any living mammal we have an infinite variety of variations.

For example: +,+,+,-,-,-, = 3 of each. Think of the +'s as "up 1", and the -'s as "down 1" The first three cancels out the next three so we end up with 0, or your proverbial "Average".

How about +,-,+,-,-,-. Add them up and we get 2 up and four down. end result = 2 down or below average size.

One more. +,+,+,+,+,-. 5 up and 1 down = 4 up. or in other words, a BIG boy.

Are you starting to get the idea?

Ok, let's start passing things on to the kids.
Let's take 2 average parents. +,+,+,-,-,-. = Dad and +,+,+,-,-,-. = Mum. Let's give them a litter of 3.

Pup 1. We'll take (at random) -,-,+. 2 minuses and 1 plus from Dad and let's say -,+,+. 1 minus and 2 pluses from Mum.

Pup one therefore is -,-,+,-,+,+. up and down we end up back at 0, or average size.
An average size pup from 2 average sized parents. What else would you expect?


Well how about Pup 2?

We'll have -,-,-. 3 minuses from Mum AND -,-,-. three minuses from Dad. What size pup do we get?
-,-,-,-,-,-. down, down, and down again 6 times means one very tiny pup.

For Pup3

We'll go the opposite. Let's have all the pluses that both Mum and Dad can give.
That's a total of +,+,+,+,+,+. 6 ups or a Chihuahua masquerading as an elephant.

AND ALL THREE FROM AVERAGE PARENTS
That's the best part.

But when you see how size is inherited, it all starts to make sense doesn't it?

But genetics is only half the story with size.
It's been fairly well documented that the human race is getting bigger and bigger with each generation. When you look through museum reproductions of early settler's cottages etc. the height of doorways and the length of beds stand out as being so small by today's standards.

This growth in the human population has been put down to an improvement in diet and better health care.

Science has pretty well proven that diet has played a major role in this phenomena. Diet is just one factor in what is generally referred to as "Environment". And environment plays a major role in the size of Chihuahuas as well.

There is more to size in Chihuahuas than pure inherited genetics. Environment plays a definite role, as does an as yet unknown genetic link to problem areas in the Chihuahua physique that inhibits growth.

Same goes for "looks." It's genetics. If you have two long muzzle parents that have short muzzles somewhere in their lines, they will come out somewhere.
Thanks for posting that its quite interesting, so basically you could get any size pups no matter wat the size of the parents?
Thanks

This is a very old breeding philosophy and isn't generally used with today's understanding of genetics. First point is that 7 pounds is oversized and shouldn't be bred. If they are not to Standard, that takes them out of the breeding pool. Second point is one that goes back to size. You don't breed big to little in order to get medium. There's absolutely no reason to breed a big bitch to a small stud. A 6 pound bitch bred to a 4 pound stud is not going to produce a litter of puppies that are 5 pounds. Genetics doesn't take an "average" when determining size. In the ideal world, both parents would be in the 4 - 5.5 pound range, along with their parents, grands, and great grands. I wouldn't specifically be looking for sires that are in the 3-4 pound range if you're looking at pups from show breeders, which of course, is the recommended source. It's extremely difficult to finish a dog of either sex under 4 pounds. You also shouldn't be hearing stories of how they have brood bitches and show dogs. The girls should be meeting the Standard just like the boys. It's not OK to breed oversized bitches any more than it is to breed oversized dogs. The fact that this continues to be done is the reason we continue to have oversized Chis. It's not necessary and is a detrement to our breed.

I agree with most of the rest. You want parents that resemble what you want your puppy to look like. However, the reason many are placed as pets is because they are slightly high in the rear, have a terrier front, ear set is too high/low, tail set too high/low, or the bite is off. None of this, unless it's extreme, will affect the ability of the puppy to be a loving, long lived companion. Notice I said as long as it's not extreme. If the parents are sound, sometimes you still end up with a puppy with one of these issues that takes them out of the breeding program/show ring but it's still a lovley dog. Bite would probably be the most prevalent thing, as with shorter muzzles, you run the risk of having an overshot or undershot bite. Again, unless it's severe, it doesn't affect the puppy. These are things that are absolutely important to the breed as a whole, and the highest standards must be used to judge a puppy's potential when considering reproduction, but they don't all adversly affect the life of the puppy. For example, while a dog that's high in the rear is not "structurally sound" and shouldn't be bred, it doesn't "hurt" the dog.

I hope I've explained this lightly enough so that you understand what I'm trying to say without going into a bunch of genetics that tend to boggle the brains and still convey why some things are important when breeding but not necessarily so when considering a pet puppy. If I've caused confusion, please let me know and I'll try to break it down better.
Thanks for ur reply! I obviously dont mind a pet standard pup thats not perfect to standard in everyway as it will just be a pet and i couldnt afford one anyway, but would still like it to look like a chi tho!
The parents i looked at both looked to hav longer muzzles and neither parent were particulary small, but they are nice looking anyway and are both colours i love, but i will keep looking and keep my options open!
 

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Yes, any size parent can throw a variety of pup sizes. The tinies are rare, but you will def. get a range of sizes. Like Lisa mentioned if the breeder knows their lines from pretty far back on both sides that helps gauge, but it isn't fail proof. I can't tell you how many times I've seen even the best of breeders get over standard in size even with known lines. Genetics are funny like that. I have even seen 2 very standard parents, coming from show lines have pups with long muzzles. So somewhere, even if far back, that was in their lines. It's just like with people. You may have generations skipped before you get a certain trait, or it may come out more frequently than you'd expect.
 

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Genetics definitely play a role. I just wanted to point out the general rule of thumb to look for parents like you want the puppies to be. Old breeding philosophy or not, I'd say it rings true in general.

In principle, it doesn't "matter" for a pet puppy, but I think it does still matter. I've yet to see two larger parents consistently or even often throw small or average pups, and I've yet to see two small parents throw exceptionally large puppies...if there is one, it's a rarity. Sure, genetics are in play. They always are. But there's some common sense intertwined as well, I think. Its always best to buy from breeders that know their lines.

While a 7 lb mom perhaps shouldn't be bred, the reality is that it's safer for the mom and many "hobby" breeders may choose to do this.

The concept that every "good" breeder does everything "right" is...well,...false. Just because a breeder doesn't show every single dog they breed doesn't mean that they are a "bad" breeder, at least IMO. The concept that a breeder is intimately familiar with the genetics of their dogs also seems to be false. The breeders that do this, to be frank, are SHOW breeders. Their pups are hard to get, their prices are often ridiculous, and more often than not they don't even have puppies for sale.

The average person choosing to do the right thing and go through a hobby or small scale breeder who is reputable versus a pet store is not likely going to run in to someone with every single duck in a row, so they're going to have to be able to make their best assessment on top of what the breeder tells them.

If we followed what we are told we should look for in a breeder, I'd bet that about 95% of us on here would not have a chi at all, because these said illustrious breeders just don't exist or don't bother to deal with the general pet owner. Often they are left to make a judgment call on their own. In that case? No...don't hope your pup from two long nosed parents will have a short muzzle, and don't home a pup from two 6 lbers is going to be 3 lbs. It's not realistic. Genetics...sure, they're in play. But...look at the parents. Then decide if you want a chi that looks like that, and continue your research from that point. If it's just a pet pup, you most likely will be happy no matter what.
 

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Genetics definitely play a role. I just wanted to point out the general rule of thumb to look for parents like you want the puppies to be. Old breeding philosophy or not, I'd say it rings true in general.

In principle, it doesn't "matter" for a pet puppy, but I think it does still matter. I've yet to see two larger parents consistently or even often throw small or average pups, and I've yet to see two small parents throw exceptionally large puppies...if there is one, it's a rarity. Sure, genetics are in play. They always are. But there's some common sense intertwined as well, I think. Its always best to buy from breeders that know their lines.

While a 7 lb mom perhaps shouldn't be bred, the reality is that it's safer for the mom and many "hobby" breeders may choose to do this.

The concept that every "good" breeder does everything "right" is...well,...false. Just because a breeder doesn't show every single dog they breed doesn't mean that they are a "bad" breeder, at least IMO. The concept that a breeder is intimately familiar with the genetics of their dogs also seems to be false. The breeders that do this, to be frank, are SHOW breeders. Their pups are hard to get, their prices are often ridiculous, and more often than not they don't even have puppies for sale.

The average person choosing to do the right thing and go through a hobby or small scale breeder who is reputable versus a pet store is not likely going to run in to someone with every single duck in a row, so they're going to have to be able to make their best assessment on top of what the breeder tells them.

If we followed what we are told we should look for in a breeder, I'd bet that about 95% of us on here would not have a chi at all, because these said illustrious breeders just don't exist or don't bother to deal with the general pet owner. Often they are left to make a judgment call on their own. In that case? No...don't hope your pup from two long nosed parents will have a short muzzle, and don't home a pup from two 6 lbers is going to be 3 lbs. It's not realistic. Genetics...sure, they're in play. But...look at the parents. Then decide if you want a chi that looks like that, and continue your research from that point. If it's just a pet pup, you most likely will be happy no matter what.
I agree and some "show breeders" will try to finish their dog before full grown in fear they will become over sized. Some champions before a year old finish and then go over sized when done growing are still bred and produce pups. So really you can't go by because they are shown or champions that is what should be breed only. I know some breeders that will say I have an 8 lb chi and only throws small chis full grown so it's in the genes it can go either way but you must do research on the lines(background) if you are breeding and know what size or type to mate it with (leave that to the breeders)..
 

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I agree and some "show breeders" will try to finish their dog before full grown in fear they will become over sized. Some champions before a year old finish and then go over sized when done growing are still bred and produce pups. So really you can't go by because they are shown or champions that is what should be breed only. I know some breeders that will say I have an 8 lb chi and only throws small chis full grown so it's in the genes it can go either way but you must do research on the lines(background) if you are breeding and know what size or type to mate it with (leave that to the breeders)..
I agree completely. In a few years when I start to breed, I'll do my "best" do do everything "right" but I mean, realistically, someone will always disagree with something I choose to do. I just think that this explanation of genetics and whatnot isn't the most appropriate way to direct people to getting a relatively standard chi pet puppy...either they don't care, or the breeder doesn't even quite understand it. It's not like you're going to show up on the doorstep of your next breeder and say "OK, let's figure out what your chis are so I can figure out what my puppy will be!".

I guess my response was directed not at the breeder but at the general consumer and how to get a good chi pet pup.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
.

The concept that every "good" breeder does everything "right" is...well,...false. Just because a breeder doesn't show every single dog they breed doesn't mean that they are a "bad" breeder, at least IMO. The concept that a breeder is intimately familiar with the genetics of their dogs also seems to be false. The breeders that do this, to be frank, are SHOW breeders. Their pups are hard to get, their prices are often ridiculous, and more often than not they don't even have puppies for sale.

I agree 100% with u there, not all "good" breeders do everything perfect, just because they charge ridiculously high prices does not mean the pup will be perfect in everyway, i think weve all heard stories of pups from good breeders with a great pedigree, KC papers etc not looking exactly to standard, and in some cases not in full health. Most of us on here are just looking for pet chis, I couldnt care less if the breeder shows all her dogs, i dont see the problem with breeders having good quality chis and not showing simply because maybe they just dont want to, it wouldnt make a difference to me at all.

If we followed what we are told we should look for in a breeder, I'd bet that about 95% of us on here would not have a chi at all, because these said illustrious breeders just don't exist or don't bother to deal with the general pet owner. Often they are left to make a judgment call on their own. In that case? No...don't hope your pup from two long nosed parents will have a short muzzle, and don't home a pup from two 6 lbers is going to be 3 lbs. It's not realistic. Genetics...sure, they're in play. But...look at the parents. Then decide if you want a chi that looks like that, and continue your research from that point. If it's just a pet pup, you most likely will be happy no matter what.
And i 100% agree with u there too, thats SO true, I know i wouldnt have Coco if id took the advise about buying from the threads on here, and she is as much to standard as id want in a pet chi.
Im certain not every1 on this forum bought their dogs from these breeders too.
However i do appreciate the advise ppl take time to give, for a pet chi there has to be a happy medium, not spending a fortune for an unecessarily perfect to standard chi, but also not buying from irresponsible cheap breeders for a pup that will look more unlike wat a chi should and possibly have health issues.
 

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I agree and some "show breeders" will try to finish their dog before full grown in fear they will become over sized. Some champions before a year old finish and then go over sized when done growing are still bred and produce pups. So really you can't go by because they are shown or champions that is what should be breed only. I know some breeders that will say I have an 8 lb chi and only throws small chis full grown so it's in the genes it can go either way but you must do research on the lines(background) if you are breeding and know what size or type to mate it with (leave that to the breeders)..
This is a very common practice. Finishing them out at 6 months so that they don't go oversized. Show breeders do get Chi's over 6 lbs., and it's not uncommon. Then once they are full grown and they breed them, they still have the genes to produce oversized Chi's. There is just no concrete science to any of it. The best thing to know is that genes do come into play no matter what size the parents are, and it can go either side of the spectrum. Small parents do not necessarily make small pups, large parents don't necessarily make large pups. In a litter of 4, you will get a range of sizes from any sized parents.

When I say this I don’t want it to sound as if I’m lumping all show breeders into a whole, because I’m not. There is good and bad in everything. But every show breeder that I contacted when looking for my pups totally turned me off. They lie and BS just like some of the other breeders. You just have to make the best, sound decision that you can when choosing a new pup. Bottom line is they may or may not turn out the way you had hoped. But as pet parents, we love them all just the same.
 

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This is a very common practice. Finishing them out at 6 months so that they don't go oversized. Show breeders do get Chi's over 6 lbs., and it's not uncommon. Then once they are full grown and they breed them, they still have the genes to produce oversized Chi's. There is just no concrete science to any of it. The best thing to know is that genes do come into play no matter what size the parents are, and it can go either side of the spectrum. Small parents do not necessarily make small pups, large parents don't necessarily make large pups. In a litter of 4, you will get a range of sizes from any sized parents.

When I say this I don’t want it to sound as if I’m lumping all show breeders into a whole, because I’m not. There is good and bad in everything. But every show breeder that I contacted when looking for my pups totally turned me off. They lie and BS just like some of the other breeders. You just have to make the best, sound decision that you can when choosing a new pup. Bottom line is they may or may not turn out the way you had hoped. But as pet parents, we love them all just the same.
True- there is good, bad and new breeders out there. most good ones will be honest and tell you if it is a pet, show possible or a good one to use for breeding(brood girl) saying that nicely since I don't talk that way.
A good way to tell what you are going to get is seeing past puppies if you ask most will show you what they have produced over the years. if you can't get that then if registered ask for the pedigree serch online for those names(dogs) before buying most good breeders will have this and doesn't have a problem showing you before you decide if that pup is for you. genes are a funny thing and keeps you guessing, some will say they can tell you exactly what you are going to get but most of the time they are even surprised in the end.
I am not saying all breeders is bad or one is wrong but I have met my share of dishonest breeders weather for show, pet or to breed. becareful and check them out ask questions and see how you feel.
chi standard- this is a hard one because everyone takes it there own way
some like a certain look and so do some judges each to it's own.
 

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True- there is good, bad and new breeders out there. most good ones will be honest and tell you if it is a pet, show possible or a good one to use for breeding(brood girl) saying that nicely since I don't talk that way.
A good way to tell what you are going to get is seeing past puppies if you ask most will show you what they have produced over the years. if you can't get that then if registered ask for the pedigree serch online for those names(dogs) before buying most good breeders will have this and doesn't have a problem showing you before you decide if that pup is for you. genes are a funny thing and keeps you guessing, some will say they can tell you exactly what you are going to get but most of the time they are even surprised in the end.
I am not saying all breeders is bad or one is wrong but I have met my share of dishonest breeders weather for show, pet or to breed. becareful and check them out ask questions and see how you feel.
chi standard- this is a hard one because everyone takes it there own way
some like a certain look and so do some judges each to it's own.
I totally agree! It's a catch 20/20, really. I think looking at past pups can help, as well as looking at parents, but I have seen so many litters that have 4 pups that all look different. In fact, in every litter I've seen you have a variety there. So it's just hard to tell. About the best you can do is to go by what you are saying though, and hope for the best. And I also agree that everyone has a different mind set on what is "standard," and what is not. I never put a whole lot of emphasis on that because all my babies are pet pups. Of course I wanted them to look like Chi's and be within standard size, but in the end I would have loved them if they looked like a baby elephants with horns. :lol: :wink:

What I always like to tell people is, the best route to go for questions like these is do the research. Google the info., search the boards. Look at threads that have new pups that are here long enough to watch grow. That way they can see for themselves that nothing is fail proof. And that variety comes in all litters. Size, looks, shapes, etc. And as already mentioned, going with lines well known is always the best bet for guessing. Otherwise, you are pretty much going into it blindsided. But the points made about people going with breeders that are mentioned so much that know all these things, do everything by the book, etc., do they really exist? :lol:

Anyway, I always like to post the genetics end of it. Then the OP can go from there, and all the advice they are given to make a choice that seems right for them. I have 4 pups that do not look much at all like their parents, and none of them are the size of their parents. So when you say that some will say that you "know what you are going to get," I'm with you on surprises in the end. :)
 

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Everything that's being said is basically the same. You want the parents to look like what you want your puppy to look like when it's grown. Don't expect miracles and the puppy to turn out smaller/larger, shorter/longer muzzle, etc. etc. There's always a chance, but it's not the norm. I think this has been said various ways but the meaning is the same. It's not the expected norm to anticipate that a puppy will be the approximate size of the same sexed parent. Never heard that and don't find it to be true in my breeding program. I don't think it's fair to the people reading these responses to rely on generalizations such as this and expect that to be the gospel when purchasing a puppy. Hence my attempt to clarify.

The older breeding philosophy that I was talking about was breeding bigger bitches to smaller studs. Way back before safe anesthesia (20 years back), it was done to reduce the risk of c-sections. Now it's not necessary. There's no evidence that proves that it's any safer to breed a 7-8 pound bitch than it is a 4-6 pound bitch. True, it sounds like a good "justification" to breed oversized bitches. I'm sure it cuts down on the veterinary bills and increases profits to have a large bitch having large litters. But, there's no documented medical reason for it. A structurally sound 5 pound bitch can safely carry and deliver a litter of 4-5 puppies just as healthily as a 7 pound bitch. If a section is needed, the anestetics today are safe for mom and puppies, regardless of size. In reality, the studies have proven that the survival rate of neonates improves with sections.

As for breeders, there's good and bad in every category. I always support the use of show breeders when looking for a puppy as I think Chis should look like Chis. However, just because they show doesn't mean they are perfect. Got that. Sad but true. Any person you think to get a puppy from should be researched. However, I also know breeders that don't show, who health test their dogs, study the pedigrees, breed to the Standard, and guarantee their pups. They just choose not to show. I've got no ethical problems with that. It's not "not showing" that causes a problem for me. It's putting two dogs together because they happen to be the same breed, hoping for the best, selling dogs that look nothing like the breed Standard, charging more than show breeders for pet puppies, and giving full registrations so the next generation of willy nilly breeders to continue the trend. Unless someone has a "got to have it now" attitude and insists on getting a puppy almost immediately, or they want full registration papers, then there's no reason anyone should have a "problem" getting puppies from show breeders. Now, if you want full registration rights or a show puppy, then yes, it takes more than money....or should. As for prices...I have a hard time believing that show breeders prices are out of orbit when I see the prices being charged by puppymills and pet stores and internet sites. Are you gonna get a $300 dog? Nope...but the newspaper is full of them if you don't care what the dog looks like.
 

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Lisa, I think the "redundancy" was so that we could clarify that we are on the same page with some, or most of the topics. :) As always, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
As for breeders, there's good and bad in every category. I always support the use of show breeders when looking for a puppy as I think Chis should look like Chis. However, just because they show doesn't mean they are perfect. Got that. Sad but true. Any person you think to get a puppy from should be researched. However, I also know breeders that don't show, who health test their dogs, study the pedigrees, breed to the Standard, and guarantee their pups. They just choose not to show. I've got no ethical problems with that. It's not "not showing" that causes a problem for me. It's putting two dogs together because they happen to be the same breed, hoping for the best, selling dogs that look nothing like the breed Standard, charging more than show breeders for pet puppies, and giving full registrations so the next generation of willy nilly breeders to continue the trend. Unless someone has a "got to have it now" attitude and insists on getting a puppy almost immediately, or they want full registration papers, then there's no reason anyone should have a "problem" getting puppies from show breeders. Now, if you want full registration rights or a show puppy, then yes, it takes more than money....or should. As for prices...I have a hard time believing that show breeders prices are out of orbit when I see the prices being charged by puppymills and pet stores and internet sites. Are you gonna get a $300 dog? Nope...but the newspaper is full of them if you don't care what the dog looks like.
Prices are alot higher in the Uk than the US you know, almost all here are expensive whether they are from good, known breeders or not. So that wouldnt really apply to here.
And as the prices here are so expensive, i would want KC papers with it, not to show or breed with them, but if im paying that much I want papers with my pup, i want some kind of gaurentee im buying a good pedigree for paying a high price.
 

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True- there is good, bad and new breeders out there. most good ones will be honest and tell you if it is a pet, show possible or a good one to use for breeding(brood girl) saying that nicely since I don't talk that way.
A good way to tell what you are going to get is seeing past puppies if you ask most will show you what they have produced over the years. if you can't get that then if registered ask for the pedigree serch online for those names(dogs) before buying most good breeders will have this and doesn't have a problem showing you before you decide if that pup is for you. genes are a funny thing and keeps you guessing, some will say they can tell you exactly what you are going to get but most of the time they are even surprised in the end.
I am not saying all breeders is bad or one is wrong but I have met my share of dishonest breeders weather for show, pet or to breed. becareful and check them out ask questions and see how you feel.
chi standard- this is a hard one because everyone takes it there own way
some like a certain look and so do some judges each to it's own.
That would be great if i could find an honest breeder to tell me realistically how they think the pup will look! Funny how carefull u have to be buying chihuahuas, wen i bought my other dogs (german shepard and dacshund), I got them both at very reasonable prices and they were both beautiful examples of their breeds, not perfect im sure for show, but both definately looked how they should. With chis theres too many different looking ones about so its not that easy.
Thanks for ur replies!
I totally agree! It's a catch 20/20, really. I think looking at past pups can help, as well as looking at parents, but I have seen so many litters that have 4 pups that all look different. In fact, in every litter I've seen you have a variety there. So it's just hard to tell. About the best you can do is to go by what you are saying though, and hope for the best. And I also agree that everyone has a different mind set on what is "standard," and what is not. I never put a whole lot of emphasis on that because all my babies are pet pups. Of course I wanted them to look like Chi's and be within standard size, but in the end I would have loved them if they looked like a baby elephants with horns. :lol: :wink:

What I always like to tell people is, the best route to go for questions like these is do the research. Google the info., search the boards. Look at threads that have new pups that are here long enough to watch grow. That way they can see for themselves that nothing is fail proof. And that variety comes in all litters. Size, looks, shapes, etc. And as already mentioned, going with lines well known is always the best bet for guessing. Otherwise, you are pretty much going into it blindsided. But the points made about people going with breeders that are mentioned so much that know all these things, do everything by the book, etc., do they really exist? :lol:

Anyway, I always like to post the genetics end of it. Then the OP can go from there, and all the advice they are given to make a choice that seems right for them. I have 4 pups that do not look much at all like their parents, and none of them are the size of their parents. So when you say that some will say that you "know what you are going to get," I'm with you on surprises in the end. :)
Thanks for ur replies all ur info is really helpfull!
 
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