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Discussion Starter #1
Hiya, :D
I was jsut wondering if anyone has not given their pup vaccinations and used a homeopathic substitute?

That is what i have been doing as i have lots of experiance with it (homeopathy) and find it has always worked for me, and my breeder (and homeopathic vet) also said that around 95% of illnesses in small breeds are from Vaccine reactions.

She has 2 pills a day for 3 days, then one once a week for 5 weeks, then every 2 weeks for the rest of her life.
It seems to be working very well as she is a picture of health and very happy.

If anyone is worried about vaccinations, a course of pills (as shown above) is only £12! Much cheaper and i hope much better then putting such a little pup's body thorough such an ordeal as vaccinations.

Has anyone heard anything about homeopathy?

Love n hugs
:angel1:
Sydney and Minka xXx
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well my homeopathic vet said that vaccines are tottaly overated and a lot of it is just the amount of money the vets get every week from puppys!
So its greed mostly. Also a LOT of people have No idea whatsoever that there is any other way of doing it, Like when i broke my leg the docs said i may never walk again, But here i am walking just fine and riding horses perfectly too (have been for 8 years now!) and i am sure that was coz of homeopathy.
My cat kai is also on homeopathy for a fatal bladder thing he has (sorry, cant remember the name) When he first got it the vets tryed everything they could but nothing was working, and he was going down hill fast,
And then we rememberd my homeopath and she said that she would give him something.
He has now been on it for 2 years and is doing fine, we just wish we had thought of it earlier!!

My family go to the homeopath for everything!
2 years ago my older sister got phnemonia (sorry if i spelt that wrong!!)
and septic shock and was very very ill, Shes right as rain now!


Love n hugs
:angel1:
Sydney and Minka xXx
 

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Does it work in most cases though as I just dont think i would want to risk something that wasnt reccomended by my vet and then my pup catch parvo - its just not worth it - glad you think it is though and others Im sure will too i think KB mamma is into homeopathic recipies ( I think if I remember correctly lol sorry Vic if your not) :wave:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Its a good point, i had to think long and hard.
I also had to listen to my breeder as she has had none of hers done (not even homeopathicly!! :? )
But as i have had nothing but good come out of it b4 im just going to cross my fingers and pray pray pray for the best...

I think if i didnt know that 95% of small dogs react so badly i wouldnt of even dreamt of doing it this way.

:)

Love n hugs
:angel1:
Sydney and Minka xXx
 

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so 95% of us on here or there abouts should of had reactions with vaccinations I think it would be a good idea to find out if thats trues as I suspect that percentage is infact faulse - my dogs for one didnt have any reactions what so ever - and i would rather tham have a reaction than contract parvo :wink: :wave:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
lol! yeah, i dont mean ALL dogs, just the ones that have been taken to my homeopathic vet!

Sorry :D

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:angel1:
Sydney and Minka xXx
 

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oh right lol :lol: I thought then well thats not possible because surely they wouldnt give medicines to small dogs in that case lol :lol:
 

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im into holistic health but not have gone as far as vaccinations, I do know after their first year shots I stop and will not vaccinate them except for rabies which I am forced to do by the state :x
and of course if I travel I may have to again :(
 

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-x_Sydney_x- said:
yep! it also boosts the immune system WAY up

Love n hugs
:angel1:
Sydney and Minka xXx
The "immune system" is a very very specific system. The body builds antibodies that are SO specific that they can find and pair with specific antigens for different viruses. This is how vaccines work. Loading up your dog on Vitamin C and other immune system boosters is not going to help it gain protection for diseases that it has not already had. The principle behind vaccines is to give low doses of killed viruses or antigens so that the body builds up immunity (antibodies) to them without getting the disease. No pill on earth can provide this kind of specificity (yet). Anyone who is using this method as a substitute for vaccination to give a specific booster to the immune system works and I would quesiton their certification as a licensed veterinarian. In terms of boostering after the initial puppy shots, the research points to that we should, but you know scientific research (changes all the time). I'm hoping that the case will be that we don't have to repeat them tri-annually in the future, but nobody is a prophet and at this point we have to go on what we've got!

Furthermore, I'm inclined to say that this vet has not "scientifically tested" this method of "vaccination", and I would be willing to bet that if you put a dog that has had these pills in a room full of dogs with distemper, bordatella, parvo, parainfluenza, adenovirus, etc... that the dog would get very sick, very quickly. This is not to say that a dog who HAS been vaccinated would not get sick, as the viruses may enter the body still, but it would be vastly less severe, even to the point where it would not cause symptoms.

Any "great success" that the vet has had with this method is probably due to the fact that most people who go to homeopathic vets are also very good owners who also don't take their dogs to places where they would be greatly in danger of contracting a dangerous disease.

I would say that if a dog has had anaphalactic reactions to vaccines, and there is no other way, sure, why not try homeopathic methods of boosting the immune system, but there's no way they are doing nearly the same thing, and are not a valid substitute.

I don't mean to come off as abrasive, but to be perfectly honest, the method is borderline "quack" and I would not hesistate to question the doctor's methods. I am not a stranger to homeopathic medicine or holistic methods having grown up in a traditional Chinese background. I have always gone to get second opinions from doctors who use Eastern methods for my own malaises and with great success. However, for some things there just is no substitute, and the immune system is not one place that you can take a chance. Very recently in Los Angeles we had a homeopathic vet who was shut down because he lost his license (something VERY rare in the veterinary world). The specific reason was unknown, I have become very skeptical regarding them...

Thanks for listening to my rant! I'm only stating my opinions because I want to help, and not lecture, I want the very best for your dog, so I hope you at least consider my point of view =)

-Nate
 

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UI share your view point nate - Like I said before ys I try homeopathic for certain things and if nothing else worked , bu8t I would NOT risk my puppy for the first year atleast not been covered for distemper or parvo etc, after the first year try the homeopathic way as alot of people vouch they dont need yearly boosters and my family have never done this either - I have lol but becuase I would rather be safe than sorry :wave:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
http://pets.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1060672766.cms

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-50,GGLD:en&q=Nosodes

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm

http://www.ainsworths.com/site/default.aspx

Hi Nate,

Please try reading up on it before you totally dismiss it.

Like I said earlier, it has ALWAYS worked for my family and me.
I have a cat who is on it now and if he wasn’t I can assure you he would be dead. We had exhausted every other method including surgery.

“Loading up your dog on Vitamin C and other immune system boosters is not going to help it gain protection for diseases that it has not already had.”
Have you ever used Nosodes on your pets? because if you have not I recommend that you do some research, as they are not simply immune boosters but do have a small amount of the diseases in them, in a way similar to vaccines.

I respect your opinion,
But I have had no vaccines and I am totally fine, my sister did have them and was damaged by them.

I think there may be something in what you said about people who use homeopathy looking after their pets very well, but I don’t think that would make a huge difference.

At some time in the future I may decide differently ( if I go abroad )
But for the time being this is what is best for us.

I always remain open-minded because I want what’s best for my dog!
I have thought long and hard about this and have discussed it with my breeder, my family and my homeopathic vet and homeopath.
:wave:

Love n hugs
:angel1:
Sydney n Minka xXx
 

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I cant make a comment at all I worked for a homeopathic Doctor remedies, biofeedback therapy, massage therapy, accupuncture there were other treatments but since my car wreck all my medical terminollgy went out the window. He was also a gp so treated you as you wanted to be treated. They tried the hypnotherapy on me i cannot be Hypnotised. As for the remedies is what they called the pills they gave you for treatment for whatever ailed you he started me on a regimen of that after my car wreck. To be honest being raised on traditional medicines I took the remedies for a week and decided to stop. I wont out rule the treatment I just feel because I was raised by a tradtional doctor and being treated that way. Change is very hard for me. So I stick with what I know. although biofeedback therapy did help me in some areas.
 

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Sydney and others, I greatly appreciate the information you've provided. Please read my responses as I have done the same as you after reading those articles.

I looked through all those websites, the ones with articles written by veterinarians had no scientific backing, no research to support their claims, so I had to read further to see what other homeopathic and traditional vets had written. My previous understanding about Nosodes is that they are composed of diseased tissue or fluid from an animal. These fluids are then somehow "potentized" and it's administration is supposed to immunize by way of "energy pattern". Of course this is reading from a homeopathic vet's description.

"Nosodes are remedies that are prepared from diseased tissue. The samples are potentized, through which process all trace of the infective agent is removed. The medicine then represents the "spirit of the disease" rather than the disease itself."
While looking up more about Nosodes I found an equal number of veterinarians willing to recommend against using them:

- From Dr. Alice Kansas State, 1994
Should you use nosodes? I recommend against it.
First, I have not been able to find any evidence, other than anecdotal reports, that nosodes work. Just because I can't find it does not mean it does not exist. But the references I have found say there are NO well designed studies that show nosodes prevent disease. In addition, it has been shown that nosodes do not produce measurable titers to the diseases they are supposed to protect against. While a specific titer level is no guarantee you cannot get the disease, titer levels have been linked to immunity. So, in general, having a reasonable titer level is a good indication that you are protected from contracting the disease.
Even if nosodes cannot be shown to work, it would be fine to use them if they are at least safe. I cannot verify their safety either! Some proponents say nosodes have no side effects while others warn to discontinue their use if disease signs are noticed. One thing we know is that while nosodes are highly diluted, they are made from possibly infectious materials. That, taken with the warnings from homeopathic practitioners to watch for disease signs, suggests some possibility they are not completely safe. Again, it would be nice if there were some evidence that would help out here.
Susan G Wynn, DVM (a holistic veterinarian)
Nosodes may be one way to protect them; unfortunately, there is no convincing evidence that nosodes do prevent disease. A few studies published in homeopathic journals suggest that nosodes may decrease the severity of active disease and possibly prevent the spread of epidemics, but these studies are not well controlled. The results of one recent well-controlled study suggest that parvovirus nosodes are completely ineffective in preventing parvoviral disease under experimental challenge conditions. Until well designed studies are completed and thousands of pet owners make a concerted effort to help with potential retrospective studies, nosodes remain an unknown quantity, and I do not recommend using them as a sole strategy for disease prevention.
Dr. Joyce Harman graduated from Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine in 1984 - holistic equine practictioner and she was president of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association in 1998 and 1999.

Nosodes often get used in place of vaccines. There is little research to support their use, and what has been done has not shown much promise. However, having said that, clinically there are many instances around the world where nosodes are used successfully in the prevention of disease.
It must be stated that no one can promise nosodes will prevent disease, and anyone that says that is giving false information. The correct answer is that they might work. The general conclusion in a recent discussion amongst holistic vets is that nosodes work best in the face of an out-break of a disease, but may not help much in the day-to-day long-term prevention.
Nosodes often get used in place of vaccines. There is little research to support their use, and what has been done has not shown much promise. However, having said that, clinically there are many instances around the world where nosodes are used successfully in the prevention of disease.
It must be stated that no one can promise nosodes will prevent disease, and anyone that says that is giving false information. The correct answer is that they might work. The general conclusion in a recent discussion amongst holistic vets is that nosodes work best in the face of an out-break of a disease, but may not help much in the day-to-day long-term prevention.
Here's an excerpt from an article written by 2 DVM's and 2 PHDs
David W. Ramey, DVM
Mahlon Wagner, PhD
Robert H. Imrie, DVM
Victor Stenger, PhD

Homeopathic practitioners may also employ the use of "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes" prepared from high dilutions of infectious agents, material such as vomitus, discharges or fecal matter or infected tissues. Curiously, nosodes are not prepared according to homeopathic principles, rather, they would be more properly described as being isopathy. Hahnemann himself decried the use of such preparations. 57 There is no evidence at all to suggest that such "immunizations" have any effectiveness.58 There is one case reported in the human literature where a patient followed her homeopath's advice and took a homeopathic immunization against malaria before traveling to an endemic area. The patient promptly got malaria.59 Homeopathic nosodes have failed to protect dogs from death due to parvoviral enteritis.60 Even given the concerns regarding potential problems with immunization in animals, it is virtually inconceivable that an ethical medical practitioner would recommend against the use of proven effective vaccine prophylaxis for diseases such as rabies, parvoviral enteritis or viral encephalitis (to name a few). Vaccination arguably constitutes the single most successful public health measure in human history.
Some support for Nosodes
IS THERE ANY RESEARCH ON HOMEOPATHIC PROTECTION?

Although homeopathic prevention has been used for many years, especially in Europe, it is not yet a standard approach and must be considered as experimental.

Christopher Day, a homeopathic veterinarian in England, has shown very good evidence of protection by homeopathic vaccines in kennels with endemic kennel cough. He, and other homeopathic veterinarians have rarely had animals they protected with nosodes become ill with those diseases and definitely find that these animals have a much lower incidence of illnesses of any kind.

Christopher Day's study is reported in the IAVH journal 4/87. Briefly, an outbreak of Kennel Cough in a kennel of 40 dogs showed that the use of vaccination was not effective. Eighteen of the 40 dogs had been previously vaccinated with PI3 & Bordetella before the outbreak. Every one of the vaccinated dogs became ill with a cough (100%) while only 19 of the remaining 22 unvaccinated dogs developed symptoms(86%). The symptoms were severe. The owners decided to try the Kennel Cough Nosode (homeopathic). Over the next several months a total of 214 dogs were treated and observed. The results show that, after use of the nosode, the incidence of Kennel Cough decreased to 4.7% in the previously vaccinated animals that came into the kennel and to about .7% in the previously unvaccinated dogs.

Other research on nosodes is currently being conducted in the United States. Funding is needed. Most homeopathic practitioners will certainly work with your animals regardless or your choices about vaccination, even if you elect to fully vaccinate them. I think this is an important issue to grapple with, and encourage you to read some of the following information, and listen to lectures by people like Dr. Ron Schultz or Dr. Jean Dodds. (Several good ones are available from the 1995 AHVMA annual conference
Ok, one study, published in 1987, shows some promise. But it's still experimental! Vaccines have been tried and tested so many times, and there still continues to be problems with their efficacy. Who knows what a Nosode might do?

If Nosodes can protect against a specific disease, why aren't antibodies formed in response to their administration? Furthermor, there are Nosodes in regular use for Cancer and AIDS. Now if they were really effective, wouldn't we have seen more media attention or medical use for them? Furthermore, according to homeopathic philosophy, it is the BODY not the substance that does the work, so if the Nosode is ineffective, it clears the doctor or the Nosode from any kind of malpractice, and instead, there must be something wrong with the animal, for which another treatment must be used.

So what alternatives to Tri-Annual Vaccination in adult dogs are medically sound?
One strategy being used by many veterinarians is to test antibody levels in the blood of our pets. Antibody levels may suggest how much immunity that pet carries against a specific disease. For many diseases, antibodies are the prime source of protection against disease, and a high level suggests that the animal may adequately respond to the agent causing that disease. Conversely, low levels indicate that the pet may be susceptible to contracting the disease in question. These antibody tests are not perfect indicators of immunity, and most immunologists suggest that we do not place total reliance on them. They are, however, the best tests we have, and can give the pet owner a rationale for not submitting a pet to vaccination, should there be any argument.
This is a minimal vaccination but maximal cost method, since the titer tests are expensive.

References for you to peruse regarding the use of Nosodes for disease prevention:

Appel, M and J.H. Gillespie. Canine distemper virus, in Gard, S (ed) Virology Monographs II, New York, Springer Verlag 1972 pp 1-96.

Axhelm, MK, Krakowka, S. 1987. Canine distemper virus- induced thrombocytopenia. Am J Vet Res 48: 1269-1275.

Carmichael, LE, et al, 1981. A modified live canine parvovirus strain with novel plaque characteristics: I. viral attentuation and dog response. Cornell Vet

Cestmir, A, Braciale, T.J, Cernescu, C, Doherty, P, et al, 1995. The Experts Speak: How does a viral infection trigger an autoimmune disease? Viral Immunology 8(4): 187-192.

Day, C. E. I. 1987. Isopathic prevention of kennel cough - is vaccination justified? Journal of the International Association of Veterinary Homeopathy 2:

Dodds, W.J. 1983. Immune Mediated Diseases of the Blood. Advances in Veterinary Science and Comparative Medicine. 27: 163-196.

Ford et al, 1995. Vaccines: Pioneering New Paths to Healthcare. Emerging Science and Technology: Advances in Veterinary Medicine. Fairway, KS.

HogenEsch, H., Azcona-Olivera, J., Scott-Moncrieff, C., Snyder, P., and L.T. Glickman, 1997. Vaccination-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Proceedings of the First International Veterinary Vaccines and Diagnostics Conference, July 27-31 1997, Madison, WI.

Olson, P. et al, 1997. Distemper Titer study in Sweden 1995- 1996. JVIM 11(2): (abstract #178)

Phillips, T. and R.Schultz, 1992. Canine and Feline Vaccines. in Current Veterinary Therapy XI. W.B.Saunders, Philadelphia, PA.

Saxton, J. 1991. The Use of Canine distemper nosode in disease control. International Journal of Veterinary Homeopathy 5:8.

Schultz, R., 1996. Parvoviral nosode ineffective in prevention of experimental parvoviral enteritis. Unpublished data

Yamamoto, K., 1994. Possible Mechanisms of Autoantibody Production and the connection of viral infections and human autoimmune diseases. Tohoku J. Exp.Med. 173: 75-82.

Hopefully I've helped provide some more information so that you can make the best decision for your dogs =)

-Nate
 

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Thanks for the info Nate I would definately not risk my precious chi to parvo and other things - I definately think its worth you getting a 2nd opinion from a regular vet to see if they feel she should be immunised - how could you forgive yourself if she contracted parvo - I know I couldnt :cry:

Good luck in what ever youi decide - its definately an interesting subject but reading the research etc I just dont think it is worth the risk :wave:
 

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:lol: lol, you guys should agree to disagree...is like "real" doctors telling chiropractors they are not... :lol: ...I'll say this..If it works for you and you're willing to take the risks, then good for you and good luck (I don't think she was asking if it was right to do it, she was just putting it out there for everybody to know there is another choice)..for a long and healthy life...
cheers! :eek:ccasion5:
 
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