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My family has been involved in the past with showing German Shepherds. I know that the GSD has been involved with some controversy among the breed itself due to breeding practices that, over the years, bred a weak structured dog that had higher instances of hip dysplasia. What I'm trying to get at, is that I've been looking at some show pictures of winning Chihuahua's and honestly? I hate the show bred chi's head structure. There were more than a few that reminded me more of Pugs than Chihuahuas. This is just my own personal opinion and I am still relatively new to the breed, but this is my opinion. After I read more and researched the German Shepherd's problems with their show bred build a few years ago, I swore that I would never support the breeding down of weakening dogs. I was just wondering if there was any sort of studies being done or has been done in regards to the health of dogs with shorter than average snouts. Also, why is this such a high regard in the show ring? I'd like to get involved in showing Chi's eventually but not if I must sacrifice my dog's longevity in order to achieve a CH title. Sorry for the rambling, just thought I would see how everyone else felt about this as well.
 

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Some unscrupulous breeders do breed for an exaggerated or 'overdone' apple head (tend to be the kind of people who breed the mythical 'Teachp' Chihuahuas also) however these are ususally pet breeders and the dogs would never do well in the show ring. Is this the kind of look you're speaking of?

I wouldn't call my Winnie's head Pug-like (he's my avatar pic) and he's pretty close to standard in the head (let's not talk about his body, it's a bit off hence why he's now living with me not with his breeder), they have to be really short in the muzzle and jowly to start looking puggy and that type of Chi would not do well in the show ring. Winnie's muzzle is short but he has a good bite, eats well and will demolish a chicken wing when given the chance.

A head to the current Chi breed standard does not have any ill effects to the dog, only when people go to the excess and breed for that cartoon like appearance does it result in problems and from what i've seen that is not what's placing in the show ring (either here in Australia where Winnie's sire and grandsire are grand champions and have heads like his or on the Chihuahua Club of America website).
 

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If you really want to get into what showies, professional breeders and dog clubs themselves have done to dogs, locate the BBC Documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and watch that, you'll be disgusted - have a box of tissues handy if you're easily upset & brought to tears.

And it is these very imbiciles who have the audacity to sling off at people who breed the odd unpapered litter from their pack in their own backyard from time to time. Pfft, that's the biggest joke of all, these people holding themselves up to be something special, breeding only to improve the breed yada yada yada.

Look at the www pics of certain breeds 100 years ago and the same breed today - and THEN tell me all these people charging $2k for a pup have been breeding to improve the breed- BS they have, they been breeding to line their own damn pockets & try run anyone else, who even dares to produce a litter, out of town. I am sure there are SOME exceptions to the rule and those who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing, but they're no different in reality because they still follow the trend of "deformed" dogs so they can sell their pups & succeed in the showring, IMO.
 

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If you really want to get into what showies, professional breeders and dog clubs themselves have done to dogs, locate the BBC Documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and watch that, you'll be disgusted - have a box of tissues handy if you're easily upset & brought to tears.

And it is these very imbiciles who have the audacity to sling off at people who breed the odd unpapered litter from their pack in their own backyard from time to time. Pfft, that's the biggest joke of all, these people holding themselves up to be something special, breeding only to improve the breed yada yada yada.

Look at the www pics of certain breeds 100 years ago and the same breed today - and THEN tell me all these people charging $2k for a pup have been breeding to improve the breed- BS they have, they been breeding to line their own damn pockets & try run anyone else, who even dares to produce a litter, out of town. I am sure there are SOME exceptions to the rule and those who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing, but they're no different in reality because they still follow the trend of "deformed" dogs so they can sell their pups & succeed in the showring, IMO.
I am watching it now... 3 second in and I'm already getting emotional !! :(
 

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I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.

For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/
 

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I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.

For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/
I even feel that 'breed standard' for AKC and KC doesn't always look out for the health of the dog - when one woman said the general belief with the KC is that discussing the health ruins the breed, it sent shivers down my spine.

I've been doing some online scouring also and there is a thought that even the breeding out deerheads in favour of an applehead isn't an improvement of the breed so its a wonder they are discounted from breed standard...

I was delighted that both my chi's (Zeus being 1/4 Jack russell) have a stronger frame than alot of the chi's that I've seen one woman even asked me if Isis was a full chihuahua as she's a little bigger than alot of the runts you see around these days... When I said, yes she's full pedigree KC registered and charting within breed standard she just said 'oh okay she's not minature though is she?' ....huh?
 

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I come from a family who bred and showed shepherds too, from back in the 80s and have had chihuahuas for about the last 15 or 16 years. I can say with all honesty, I don't feel the "show" chihuahua is anywhere near the extremeties they took shepherds too. You don't find a pet shepherd who has such severe angulation that it has displasia by the time its four, with broken down hocks and early onset arthritis from its "correct" conformation. Being honest, you will not see the american line show shepherds anywhere outside of the show ring. The chihuahua "show head"is something that is ocasionally taken to the extreme, but honestly, its usually not, and many people with pet quality dogs have "apple head" dogs. Its what's correct by breed standard, and always has been, its not just a new fad in the last 15 or 20 years. As far as health concerns, the average chi with an applehead does not have any more health problems than a "deerheaded" chihuahua. Any dog with a small mouth usually needs proper dental care to prevent dental problems. Now the extremely short muzzled dogs do sometimes have a harder time in extreme heat, but like I said, honestly those super extreme pug like heads aren't the "norm" in the show ring. There's also hydro, but I've seen that result
From two dogs who had rather plain heads, not extreme at all, nearly deer headed. Imo the show chihuahua does not have any more health risks than the pet quality chihuahua. The real risks and problems I've seen are more related to a lot of pet quality dogs who end up with luxating patellas, bad hearts can be a problem, again not show related, and honestly I see a lot of people who's dogs are either grossely overweight from overfeeding and lack of exercize, or on the other opposite a lot of backyard breeders who keep their dogs way too skinny just so they can say I have an xx pound dog. Id rather see the dog with enough weight on it for its frame to have proper muscle and flesh on it than see it half starved to make a weight that it honestly shouldn't be. I have a dog here who was supposed to be 5lbs, at a healthy weight, she's around 6.5. The shepherd show ring and the chihuahua show ring are honestly like two completely different worlds, id defiantly suggest checking out the chihuahuas at your next show
 

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I forgot to add the other big problem is people breeding for tiny dogs (under 3 lbs) those dogs have trouble maintaining their blood sugar, often getting hypoglocemic, and they almost always need c sections as the dam is just too small to be bred. You usually don't see dogs under 3lbs in the ring, those are usually backyard breeders who are trying to sell dogs marketing them as "teacup" with no concern for the dogs health. Honestly in the ring, id say the average is 4-5lbs, imo long coats tend to run a little bigger in my area
 

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I come from a family who bred and showed shepherds too, from back in the 80s and have had chihuahuas for about the last 15 or 16 years. I can say with all honesty, I don't feel the "show" chihuahua is anywhere near the extremeties they took shepherds too. You don't find a pet shepherd who has such severe angulation that it has displasia by the time its four, with broken down hocks and early onset arthritis from its "correct" conformation. Being honest, you will not see the american line show shepherds anywhere outside of the show ring. The chihuahua "show head"is something that is ocasionally taken to the extreme, but honestly, its usually not, and many people with pet quality dogs have "apple head" dogs. Its what's correct by breed standard, and always has been, its not just a new fad in the last 15 or 20 years. As far as health concerns, the average chi with an applehead does not have any more health problems than a "deerheaded" chihuahua. Any dog with a small mouth usually needs proper dental care to prevent dental problems. Now the extremely short muzzled dogs do sometimes have a harder time in extreme heat, but like I said, honestly those super extreme pug like heads aren't the "norm" in the show ring. There's also hydro, but I've seen that result
From two dogs who had rather plain heads, not extreme at all, nearly deer headed. Imo the show chihuahua does not have any more health risks than the pet quality chihuahua. The real risks and problems I've seen are more related to a lot of pet quality dogs who end up with luxating patellas, bad hearts can be a problem, again not show related, and honestly I see a lot of people who's dogs are either grossely overweight from overfeeding and lack of exercize, or on the other opposite a lot of backyard breeders who keep their dogs way too skinny just so they can say I have an xx pound dog. Id rather see the dog with enough weight on it for its frame to have proper muscle and flesh on it than see it half starved to make a weight that it honestly shouldn't be. I have a dog here who was supposed to be 5lbs, at a healthy weight, she's around 6.5. The shepherd show ring and the chihuahua show ring are honestly like two completely different worlds, id defiantly suggest checking out the chihuahuas at your next show
I don't think chihuahuas have a huge problem in terms of showing etc but I do feel that more needs to be done overall to encourage the HEALTH and strength of the puppies over the size and certain attributes that may not be beneficial to the puppies health - which is something I believe the kennel club need to really reform within their policy.

That show has caused me to lose interest in showing all together and lose alot of respect for the KC.
 

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I forgot to add the other big problem is people breeding for tiny dogs (under 3 lbs) those dogs have trouble maintaining their blood sugar, often getting hypoglocemic, and they almost always need c sections as the dam is just too small to be bred. You usually don't see dogs under 3lbs in the ring, those are usually backyard breeders who are trying to sell dogs marketing them as "teacup" with no concern for the dogs health. Honestly in the ring, id say the average is 4-5lbs, imo long coats tend to run a little bigger in my area
Thats good to know :) I'ts incredible how they still look sooo tiny next to their owners though isn't it? x
 

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I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.

For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/
I want to do the same. Just waiting for her breeder to send me over the certificates.

Its funny when I first saw Isis advertised I had this sense of urgency to get her like I needed to protect her then when I brought her home something inside me felt as though I'd rescued her...Even my BF said randomly to me ''You know you've given her a much better life than she had before'' and his mother who is an experienced dog owner said a similar thing to him too which is odd as I never spoke to her about Isis beforehand.

She came from a breeder who sold her to another breeder/shower but because she wasn't shaping up to be suitable for showing/breeding she sent her back. My vet said she'd infact be perfect for breeding because of her size and healthy form (obviously going on first impression and she would have to pass tests at a certain age etc) She also had kennel cough which I didn't realise until a couple of days later when she was hacking and spluttering.

Makes me wonder what conditions she was held in and what she was going to be in for. Just simple things like wiping her down after she's rolled about in some random substance in the field to me is small indicators of care that hasn't been taken....I don't know maybe I'm just one of those neurotic over babying owners..
 

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one woman even asked me if Isis was a full chihuahua as she's a little bigger than alot of the runts you see around these days... When I said, yes she's full pedigree KC registered and charting within breed standard she just said 'oh okay she's not minature though is she?' ....huh?
:-? How small do they want dogs to be? Ted's just over the 6lb UK breed standard (which I am more than happy about) but he's still a very small dog :rolleyes:

When people ask what he is though (long haired chis seem to confuse people) I am sometimes economical with the truth because it seems toy dogs get stolen in the UK so I figure why shout about him being a KC reg chi :coolwink:
 

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The small size issue reminds me of LS and her rescue dog, Bella. Bella is not even three pounds. She has bad luxating patellas and a bunch of socialization issues. She is extremely frail and, as LS has said several times, she is the product of someone breeding just for size or look. She is adorable, but it is a miracle that she found an experienced rescuer to help rehab and love her. So sad.

I absolutely do not like the look of those extreme, tiny dogs that "breeders" have created. To me, its all about temperament and health. I wanted a small dog- Toby is 5.5 pounds and I honestly don't think I could handle one much smaller than him. He's fragile enough.


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:-? How small do they want dogs to be? Ted's just over the 6lb UK breed standard (which I am more than happy about) but he's still a very small dog :rolleyes:

When people ask what he is though (long haired chis seem to confuse people) I am sometimes economical with the truth because it seems toy dogs get stolen in the UK so I figure why shout about him being a KC reg chi :coolwink:
That's what I thought!! I was just like....:foxes15: They just don't *get* it!!

Isis has room wearing a harness that is xs even on its tightest point she's tiny - but big enough to not be too fragile...

And I remember her breeder saying that she's a good size because breeders/customers are so focused on them being super tiny they forget that they can only breed down the skeletal frame...the organs remain the same size... its no wonder the whole problem with Cavilier King Charles spaniels exists!! I would hate to see a chi or ANY dog go through the same or
something similar!!!

The whole craziness of people stealing Chi's TERRIFIES me!! I know there have been a few cases of people being attacked and mugged for their dogs and my BF was hounded by a group of youths when he went out with Isis not too long ago which made him realise why I am so overprotective over them.
 

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The small size issue reminds me of LS and her rescue dog, Bella. Bella is not even three pounds. She has bad luxating patellas and a bunch of socialization issues. She is extremely frail and, as LS has said several times, she is the product of someone breeding just for size or look. She is adorable, but it is a miracle that she found an experienced rescuer to help rehab and love her. So sad.

I absolutely do not like the look of those extreme, tiny dogs that "breeders" have created. To me, its all about temperament and health. I wanted a small dog- Toby is 5.5 pounds and I honestly don't think I could handle one much smaller than him. He's fragile enough.


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Bella definitely is VERY lucky LS found her... I think part of the reason I fell in love with both Zeus and Isis so much is that they are small but healthy sized dogs with loving temperaments and I've seen some really tiny chi's that just look frail and sick TBH and over the years as I've matured I put health over being able to hold them in my pocket LOL!! (I started loving/wanting a chihuahua at age 7) .

They of course are still fragile to a degree but not so much that I can't enjoy them and they are happy to run around, play and knock each other about (playfully ) without coming to serious harm.

I was watching TOWIE the other day (uk show) and one of the girls chi's - his name is Elvis is teeny but just seems a bit ill and constantly shaking with nerves I just wanted to reach in and take him :(
 

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The whole craziness of people stealing Chi's TERRIFIES me!! I know there have been a few cases of people being attacked and mugged for their dogs and my BF was hounded by a group of youths when he went out with Isis not too long ago which made him realise why I am so overprotective over them.
Me too, not the being attacked bit (although that is scary!) but the thought of someone taking him. I am super careful where I walk him and he is trained not to go out of sight of me when off lead. He was following two CKCs yesterday and someone said "aren't you worried", me "no, watch this" he reached the tree they were about to disappear around and then hurtled back to me. I didn't even need to call him :coolwink:

But it's still a worry, I would never leave him in the car on his own or tie him up outside a shop (I feel sick thinking about it). I've thought about getting a Rottie (never used to like them but have a soft spot for them now) for back up, not that I would want a dog to fight but the sight of them puts most people off ;) It's either than or another 19 chis ...
 

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Reading through a few more replies, I wanted to clairify something I posted. While I do feel that a huge health concern is breeders purposely breeding for tiny chihuahuas (under 3 lbs) honestly, I don't feel that is something caused by "show people". To be blunt, its very rare to see a tiny chi in the show ring, its even more rare for judges to actually place them. I would say most show breeders are breeding for dogs in the 4-5lb range. The people who are breeding for tinies are honestly backyard breeders producing pet quality puppies who they can call teacup (no such thing, its just a word they use to make people think its something special). Also, I suggest checking out the chihuahua club of americas code of ethics, imo show breeders of chihuahuas are leaps ahead of other breeds. Now I can agree, the american show line german shepherds have gone to a bad place, but I've only seen the chihuahua improve healthwise with most show breeders cerf and ofa screening their dogs, breeding dogs of healthy sizes, and honestly, most show chihuahuas have decent temperments. I really doubt even the friendliest pets could go to a show with 2000 dogs of all shapes and sizes barking, howling, noise from strange people, lots of hustle and bustle, be lead around a strange ring with a weird texture floor with strangers running up behind you, and finally stand perfectly still on a flimsy table nearly 3 feet in the air while some stranger pokes their fingers in your mouth and grabs your man parts to make sure all is there, meanwhile your not allowed to move and must remain posed. I know, it looks like a peice of cake, but honestly, it takes a good temperment for a dog to actually enjoy showing.
 

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I come from a health angle. If a 'backyard breeder' wants to breed family pets that are not show quality, it is usually frowned upon. They aren't improving the breed, etc. However, if those people care enough to do health testing on their breeding stock - then so be it! Breed healthy pets for people!

The Chi Club of America recommends health testing and certification for eyes (CERF), patellas (OFA), and heart. Reputable breeders WILL health test.

When and IF pet breeders get on board with this and want to produce a larger, less fragile chi, with a longer muzzle and less extreme head AND they are willing to health test, then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

I DO have a problem with breeders (show or otherwise) who breed for the tiniest dogs they can with NO regard to health or temperament. Those are the people we should be complaining about and NOT supporting.
 

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All breeders who breed for shows are the same, regardless of the breed IMO - they ALL choose to call "IN-BREEDING" by a different term, that being 'LINE BREEDING' to make what they're doing more respectable - bunkum!

Isn't it said that every Pug in the world goes back to only a handful of 50 or is it 10, I can't remember. Whatever it is, it's not a diverse gene pool!

For a good quality, healthy pet, give me a backyard bred, non-related mating of 2 purebred dogs any day, thank you very much :) I've done my time shelling out enough to put a deposit on a house every time I bought an expensive show/stud dog proposition from "the best breeders in the land". In fact if I'd bought houses instead of show dogs I'd have a decent portfolio now, ah hindsight.

NB:
The "enough to put a deposit on a house every time I bought a show/stud prop" - I'm referring to the bleedin' Vet bills after buying the thing, not even thinking about the price of the dog, it's the Vet bills of this "line bred" mutants that are my issue and axe to grind.
 
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